Camaro Z/28 is 3 seconds faster than the ZL1 on Milford Road Course

[NightmareZL1]

[Pappa Joe]

Originally Posted by Doc

Here's a real NIGHTMARE....Mark Stielow drove YOUR ZL1 faster than you ever will at Gingerman Raceway. He then drove his personal 1969 Camaro faster than YOUR ZL1 by several seconds in a single lap at Gingerman Raceway. He knew how important it was to make YOU and YOUR ZL1 look bad so he CHEATED by making sure his Camaro had STICKY TIRES that YOUR ZL1 didn't so he could beat it and make YOU personally look bad. You're the ONLY ONE THAT'S FIGURED THIS OUT!!!! He hates you now. He's out to get you...

It gets worse....

Mark Stielow convinced GM to put him in charge of the Z/28 program so he could continue embarrassing YOU PERSONALLY by developing a car that's a NIGHTMARE for you by giving it STICKY TIRES because he KNEW that would enable him to make this new Z/28 make YOUR ZL1 look bad on the Nurburgring. GM is TOTALLY BEHIND THIS and gave him millions of dollars to carry out this PERSONAL insult to YOU and YOUR ZL1. They gave him the budget to fly an entire team plus cars over to Germany to do this because they REALLY WANTED to make YOUR ZL1 look worse than their new Z/28.

They did and are doing all this because they know how unbelievably important this thread is to not only their reputation, but the motoring world in general. They're afraid of you and how smart you are for figuring out their sticky tire trick!

SO....pony up son! Buy a set of Trofeos, slap them onto your mighty ZL1 and go to Gingerman Raceway and SHOW THEM PERSONALLY what CHEATERS and DECEIVERS they are. You'll be famous! Go for it. We'll be waiting to see the video and news reports. This will be....epic....

Wow!! GM went through all that just to make his car look bad, Moral of this story dont piss G.M off! The following said with a hint of sarcasm

[Squillo]

Originally Posted by NightmareZL1

HAHA HAHA HAHA

That's what I want to see with ZL1 and Z/28!!!!

[Bell040]

Originally Posted by brt3

The ZL1 ran a 7:41.27 at the Nordschleife. A Corvette C6 Z06, with DOT competition tires and the Z07 package, ran 7:22.68. I'm betting the Z/28 ought to turn a 7:33 -- which would make it one of the fastest cars per dollar at The Ring...

It did run 7:41:27, but I don't think I would call that a stock ZL1



http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175148

[Doc]

Originally Posted by NightmareZL1

Yeah that was awesome vid, that car didn't have more power(yeah it did) and it didn't have 1000 lbs less weight(yeah, it did), and since it is not the same chassis, it isn't even related to this debate. good try though. Looks like I am still your nightmare Your angle of attack was about as relevant as putting the camaro against a Zonda.

And, again, learn to read, I never said cheaters. I said, have your man drive both cars with same tires. Pretty simple concept, but too much for you to comprehend, so you gather unrelated facts and then attack my driving ability, which was never brought up or even in question. Wow, look at you getting so upset because you cannot fathom such a simple concept as, "show me the times of both cars, with same tires, with the same GM driver. Now, calm down, change your diaper, breath, take your ritalin, and get back on topic. There is a three second difference, prove it is not just the tires.

You make your profile appear as though you race cars, but if you believe that tires don't matter, then your driving skills must be as bad as your debate ability. looks as if my driving ability is not the one to be doubted.

Originally Posted by NightmareZL1

Also on Mark Stielow, ask him if the Trofeos would Significantly improve the ZL1 lap time...he will say yes, without a doubt.

Originally Posted by NightmareZL1

You don't get it because you simply don't want to. You think you're making some kind of awesome point over tires when nobody including Mark Stielow would say otherwise. You don't have any actual points to make and your posts are not contributing anything of value so keep your tin foil hat on and keep looking out the window; they could be coming to get you any minute!

[Jim968]

Although I have never run the Trofeos, I do have extensive experience with DOT competition tires. Over the years I’ve run Hoosiers, Michelin MPSC, BFG R1, Toyo RA1, etc. Around a track like Mid-Ohio all of these tires beat the best street tires by at least 3 seconds. The new Hoosier R6s and BFG g-Force R1s are probably 4 and maybe even 5 seconds faster.

[NightmareZL1]

Careful Jim, slow poke doc might take offense to your valid opinion. But in case it flew way over his head, as most things apparently do, i must emphasize that you are saying that race tires have enabled your to reduce lap times by whole seconds. I have had that same experience. Alas, we are the minority in this thread. Luckily, you do not drive a ZL1, because that would automatically diminish your credibility here. BTW, thank you for your information. I really didn't know the lap time reduction would be that significant.

[NightmareZL1]

Originally Posted by Doc

You don't get it because you simply don't want to. You think you're making some kind of awesome point over tires when nobody including Mark Stielow would say otherwise. You don't have any actual points to make and your posts are not contributing anything of value so keep your tin foil hat on and keep looking out the window; they could be coming to get you any minute!

I am making a very awesome point, one that is lost on you. If mark chose those tires for the z28, he knew exactly what they could do, and knew it would help the z28 close the power gap with the zl1. I would have done the same thing. I hope they are cutting some additional weight now in your dream car, it probably needed it.

I suppose you think that jim , above, doesn't have any actual points either? Id like to see your counter to his experience, UFO's?

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by NightmareZL1

You don't understand the troll concept very well, or the tire one either, whatever.

I have every right to post statements of speculative performance on a car just as you folks can speculate that it will be faster than a Z06 , will do the quarter in 10 seconds, and has a much lower center of gravity than another car with the same exact chassis. It can have a lower COG, technically, if it is 1/4 in lower, good luck with extremely dramatic performance changes though. Point is still, Pirelli used the rubber compound from their Race slicks on these tires, they are getting a rep -world wide- as the stickiest street rubber, they will improve the track times of ANY car they are put on, GM wanted to improve the track time on a camaro chasis, they couldnt have the torque of the ZL1, they give it slicks, so it could keep it's speed out through a corner. (yeah, some of you may think the LS7 has a broader torque curve that the LSA, it doesnt. They Z06 LS7 needs RPM to make power, at low RPM it lugs with a 3100 lb car, it will be worse with a 3800 lb car) these are fact from a person that drove a modified LS7 Z06 for a long time, accept it, the Z28 needed the tires to make that track time.

I'm one the few, if not the only person in this thread, who has owned an LS7 car, but I guess that makes me a troll. okey dokee.

Yes the Trofeos would improve most any cars track time.

However that's not what the ZL1 is "only" about, its a street car that can be a DD "first" and thats the way it was designed to be. As for the Z/28 it is primarily a track car that allows you to legally drive it to the track. As for COG we know the Z/28 suspension has been lowered. The 19" wheels and tires have also lowered it. It does not have a S/C so it's less top heavy. All this adds up to a lower COG. Yes again, the LSA is more torquey its a S/C'd engine. It's built for off the line and all around performance. You having owned one know the LS7 is built to track with its higher rpm's and mid range torque. So to end, yes the ZL1 doing a hero lap would be faster than it is now (wearing GY's) with the Z/28's tires around a track. But then again your concerned about the 3 second comment which was an "early" accomplishment...where is the Z/28 at now?

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Doc

(to NightmareZL1) You don't get it because you simply don't want to. You think you're making some kind of awesome point over tires when nobody including Mark Stielow would say otherwise. You don't have any actual points to make and your posts are not contributing anything of value so keep your tin foil hat on and keep looking out the window; they could be coming to get you any minute!

Originally Posted by Jim968

Although I have never run the Trofeos, I do have extensive experience with DOT competition tires. Over the years I’ve run Hoosiers, Michelin MPSC, BFG R1, Toyo RA1, etc. Around a track like Mid-Ohio all of these tires beat the best street tires by at least 3 seconds. The new Hoosier R6s and BFG g-Force R1s are probably 4 and maybe even 5 seconds faster.

Thanks for your contribution Jim but as I pointed out and many have, nobody is questioning this. Everybody knows track tires on the track out-perform street tires. What some people assumed was that the only thing that made the Z/28 faster than the ZL1 were the Trofeos and that GM isn't posting the Z/28's Nurburgring times because they're embarrassed and trying to hide something. Mark Stielow is legendary for his abilities and knows very well the difference tires makes. He doesn't think that just putting Trofeos on the Z/28 is all he needs to do. He knows since it's a track car he HAS to develop it for track tires since that's what Z/28 owners are going to be using on it. He's tweaking everything on the car to handle the g-forces it's going to sustain on the track with track tires, hence the brakes, the custom shocks, the differential, and everything else. He knows what he's doing which is a point some have apparently either missed or just don't want to acknowledge.

You sound experienced and I appreciate your contribution to the thread.

[silverds]

I'm sure tires are going to be the least of upgrades differentiating the 2012 - up ZL1 and the 2014 Z/28. Here are a few to consider when debating how much any one change might make a significant difference in the targeted performance disparity between these two versions.

*Z/28 LS7 figures based on currently published production LS7 specifications.

HP/TQ
ZL1: 580 bhp @6000 rpm / 556 lb-ft @4200 rpm
Z/28: *505 bhp @6300 rpm / 470 lb-ft @4800 rpm

Advantage: ZL1

MAX RPM
ZL1: 6200RPM
Z/28: *7100RPM
Advantage: Z/28

Brakes
ZL1: Brembo Calipers - 6 Piston @Front, 4 piston @Rear with Brembo 2-Piece Steel Rotors.
Z/28: Brembo Calipers - 6 Piston @Front, 4 piston @Rear with Brembo Carbon Ceramic Rotors.

Advantage Z/28

Tires
ZL1: Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar:G2 285/35R20 @Front, 305/35R20 @Rear
Z/28: Pirelli PZero Trofeo R 305/30ZR19 @Front, P305/30ZR19 @Rear

Let's recall that both the 2013 GT500 and 2012 ZL1 wore Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar:G2 in the Car&Driver Lightning Lap comparison and HP advantage alone was not enough to close the gap, around the track. I realize there are many other differences besides tires, but that's the point.

Advantage Z/28

Aerodynamics/Lift
ZL1: 65 Net lbs of downforce at 150 MPH
Z/28: Al Oppenheiser "at some point when we tell you how much, it will knock your socks off how much down force this car makes.”

Advantage Z/28

Suspension
ZL1: 3rd Generation Magnetoreheologically adaptive suspension system
Z/28: Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) dampening system (Anecdotally, also used on the Aston Martin One-77 "Supercar")

Advantage Z/28

Weight
ZL1: 4120
Z/28: @ < 3800

Advantage Z/28

Chassis Dynamics
ZL1: Great
Z/28: Even Better

Advantage Z/28

[Zfatuated]

Originally Posted by silverds

I'm sure tires are going to be the least of upgrades differentiating the 2012 - up ZL1 and the 2014 Z/28. Here are a few to consider when debating how much any one change might make a significant difference in the targeted performance disparity between these two versions.

Dry Sump for high g loading engine longevity.
Variety of coolers to keep the trans/diff/PS from committing suicide on hot track days.
Linear power delivery NA powerband, more controllable on track.
Seats that hold you in place and act as the first line safety system.
Stiffer bushings/mountings for better control and feel.

Advantage Z/28

It goes on and on...

[IOMZL1]

The last few posts shed some real light on this argument. Thanks for taking the time to outline everything.

Let's not forget (these have already been mentioned):

Weight Distribution
Advantage Z/28

Engine Architecture
(Naturally Aspirated vs. Supercharged)
Advantage Z/28


Center of Gravity (COG)
Advantage Z/28

I'm sure there are more. Not to discredit the ZL1 but these are things that will help the Z/28 on the track. ZL1 is still a great car.

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

ZL1 is still a great car.