[Mighty Mouce]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Interesting perspective. Being a car guy, both Hellcats and ZL1s stand out to me. The Hellcats have a nice look from all angles, except for straight on the back end, the back is too tall and the perspective is off. Impressive that it still catches peoples eye being a 10 year old platform. From a rear 45 degree angle, the back still looks great, and I like the taillights.

I agree most ZL1s will never see a track. Hellcats and Mustang GTs PP1/2s as well. My GT PP1 will probably never see a track.

The Hellcat and Challenger in general looks better than the ZL1. I personally I think the ZL1 has a but ugly grill. Reminds me of Oil Can Harry....I think the SS grill is clean and looks sleek.

https://www.google.com/search?biw=13...=1544153118028


https://jalopnik.com/the-2018-camaro...d-a-1792733827

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Deputy Dog

This looks like a cartoon?....

The styling is a little out there, but it's still a good looking car. And that cam lope is sick! A buddy of mine just built an LS motor with the ASA cam for his G8. I haven't heard it yet but it will have a similar lope to it.

[97cavy22]

Originally Posted by Deputy Dog

This looks like a cartoon?....

Nice ride! And those aren’t my words. I bought the damn car so you know I like it. Talking with people at cars and coffee, car peeps on social media and the like I’ve heard the word cartoonish styling styling thrown around lore than once.

[Deputy Dog]

Originally Posted by 97cavy22

Nice ride! And those aren’t my words. I bought the damn car so you know I like it. Talking with people at cars and coffee, car peeps on social media and the like I’ve heard the word cartoonish styling styling thrown around lore than once.

And what are they driving? Toyotas.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Found this sales data for the Camaro...yikes, it's been taking a hit every year since 2015 (on pace for 51k or so this year). Below that are Mustang's sales...they took a big jump up when the 2015 models came out...but Mustang sales are also on the decline the past three years. Challenger sales have been going up steadily every year and very consistent the last 3 years. Interesting; the sales are getting better as the platform ages. Maybe it's due to the 30 different models available. Dodge is wringing as much as feasible from that old design.

Chevrolet
Camaro
2017 67,940
2016 72,705
2015 77,502
2014 86,297
2013 80,567
2012 84,391
2011 88,249
2010 81,299
2009 61,648


Ford
Mustang
2017 81,866
2016 105,932
2015 122,439
2014 82,635
2013 77,186
2012 82,995
2011 70,438
2010 73,716
2009 66,623


Dodge
Challenger
2017 64,537
2016 64,478
2015 66,365
2014 51,611
2013 51,462
2012 43,119
2011 39,534
2010 36,791
2009 25,852

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by motorhead

....I know when Im out in the Hellcat, I get a lot more attention than when Im out in the ZL1. They dont care that the ZL1 is more refined and over all a better performer. Fiat has done their homework in keeping an old design relevant and appealing. It proves that you dont have to be the best when it comes to numbers...

This also applies in music. Look at the top artists...many of them aren't that talented or are downright untalented, helped by auto-tune and mass marketing, but they sell a lot of albums.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

This also applies in music. Look at the top artists...many of them aren't that talented or are downright untalented, helped by auto-tune and mass marketing, but they sell a lot of albums.

You are 100% true there. There is so much better music out there than what is mainstream.

Hitting it big has nothing to do with being able to sing.

[benjj]

Originally Posted by motorhead

You are 100% true there. There is so much better music out there than what is mainstream.

Hitting it big has nothing to do with being able to sing.

So you guys are agreeing that the Mustang is the mainstream here right?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Found this sales data for the Camaro...yikes, it's been taking a hit every year since 2015 (on pace for 51k or so this year). Below that are Mustang's sales...they took a big jump up when the 2015 models came out...but Mustang sales are also on the decline the past three years. Challenger sales have been going up steadily every year and very consistent the last 3 years. Interesting; the sales are getting better as the platform ages. Maybe it's due to the 30 different models available. Dodge is wringing as much as feasible from that old design.

Chevrolet
Camaro
2017 67,940
2016 72,705
2015 77,502
2014 86,297
2013 80,567
2012 84,391
2011 88,249
2010 81,299
2009 61,648


Ford
Mustang
2017 81,866
2016 105,932
2015 122,439
2014 82,635
2013 77,186
2012 82,995
2011 70,438
2010 73,716
2009 66,623


Dodge
Challenger
2017 64,537
2016 64,478
2015 66,365
2014 51,611
2013 51,462
2012 43,119
2011 39,534
2010 36,791
2009 25,852

Here is a aid for the data. Mustang has also taken a hit as the three move toward even market share.

Mustang just did a major refresh. Dodge has marketed heavily. Camaro has done nothing.

Its interesting to see that the market expanded with Camaro's returned and Dodge's monster products and advertising.

Look at Camaro's 2017 total compared to Mustang 2009 or Challengers entire existence.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The CT6 is NOT dead. It is and will continue to be built in China. Just not here.

Also the Cruze continues in Mexico and China, just not here. Like the Buick Verano which is not only still in production, it’s an all new model. Just not here.



You are making excuses. The Camaro is not a Miata (actual sports car) or Corvette for that matter. In a world were everyone is abandoning sedans for SUVs a coupe will need to offer more, not less practicality to survive. GM can’t afford the development dollars for multiple low volume coupes.

The issue isn’t really whether GM keeps the Camaro in production. It needs to simply to help LGR. The issue is whether GM finds the ROIC for doing a Gen7.

And it’s far, far from a Camaro issue. GM has problems on all models getting recognition in the market. On the coasts GM market share was, last I saw data, sometimes below 10%. That is pathetic. I remember seeing data that many didn’t even know GM made cars. Thought they made pickups.

I stand corrected on CT6 being dead. Thank you sir

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Here is a aid for the data. Mustang has also taken a hit as the three move toward even market share.

Mustang just did a major refresh. Dodge has marketed heavily. Camaro has done nothing.

Its interesting to see that the market expanded with Camaro's returned and Dodge's monster products and advertising.

Look at Camaro's 2017 total compared to Mustang 2009 or Challengers entire existence.

Good work. A picture is worth a thousand words.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by Stex

60-70s Chevelle, GTO /Lemans and Buick version were all bigger than the current Challenger but weighed way less.

Yeh, they also did not have air bags, the extra electronics, computer modules, steel reinforcements etc. All that weigh adds up.

[Msokeefe]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Found this sales data for the Camaro...yikes, it's been taking a hit every year since 2015 (on pace for 51k or so this year). Below that are Mustang's sales...they took a big jump up when the 2015 models came out...but Mustang sales are also on the decline the past three years. Challenger sales have been going up steadily every year and very consistent the last 3 years. Interesting; the sales are getting better as the platform ages. Maybe it's due to the 30 different models available. Dodge is wringing as much as feasible from that old design.

Chevrolet
Camaro
2017 67,940
2016 72,705
2015 77,502
2014 86,297
2013 80,567
2012 84,391
2011 88,249
2010 81,299
2009 61,648


Ford
Mustang
2017 81,866
2016 105,932
2015 122,439
2014 82,635
2013 77,186
2012 82,995
2011 70,438
2010 73,716
2009 66,623


Dodge
Challenger
2017 64,537
2016 64,478
2015 66,365
2014 51,611
2013 51,462
2012 43,119
2011 39,534
2010 36,791
2009 25,852

I think the Challenger goes up in sales because it is the most retro looking car.

[JhonnyGTR]

Originally Posted by motorhead

You are 100% true there. There is so much better music out there than what is mainstream.

Hitting it big has nothing to do with being able to sing.

Here in Dominican Republic that's a BIG