[rotis]

Brake fade is not "complete brake failure". Having a rotor explode or a piston seal failure would fall under the category of "complete brake failure".

You got brake fade because you weren't using an appropriate compound, and you didn't take the basic steps advised by the manual to get more air to the brakes. You should really do both.

[CleanAss]

Thanks for all the feedback. To respond to some of the points:

1) I intentionally didn't change anything as per manual and went out in that hot temp with full stock setup because I wanted to discover what is the limit of the stock system if I were to push it on the street in the setup how I drive it every day.

2) Ultimately I don't want to use anything "track specific". I'm one of those guys who wants to come to track, drive, and leave, without changing anything. I dislike the idea of having some slicks and different cooling when you're out on the track. I want my car to handle the same regardless of track or street - I don't want to learn 2 different driving modes. Just a personal preference I guess. Especially I hate the idea of these brake ducts that "expose the brakes to the elements". There's a ton of sand and debris flying around the track; it's the last place I want to expose my brakes.

3) However, for my next track day, I will certainly put in higher temp fluid and will swap out the pads for something higher temp. We'll see how far that gets me without brake ducts.

4) When I say "experienced complete break failure" what I meant is that when I rolled out to parking lot in 1st gear which would go less than 5 mph, I couldn't stop at that 5 mph using brakes - they did nothing; I ended up resorting to the parking break to stop the car.

5) This picture probably does have me breaking into a turn

6) is 2:08 a good time? I think many cars run less than 2 minutes there. I could've easily done less than 2 minutes with working brakes. I set that 2:08 time in the first 3 laps of the day where I overheated the brakes. It was the first time I ever drove this car on the track, and while I braked aggressively, I by no means pushed the car to the limit. I was just exploring. Plus traction control and a passenger. After that, the rest of the day I set 2:10 time on 90% of laps using almost engine braking exclusively (and a little excessive sideways action, which was fun for my passenger . I actually enjoyed purposefully not using the brakes as it felt like go karting where I have to focus on carrying maximum speed through the turns. There was a last gen Corvette Z06 in the same group who I kept passing and it felt like I was cruising, while he was trying so hard, almost flying off the track on every corner. I don't have much experience on track, maybe have been total of 10 times on 3-4 different tracks. I do have a lot of experience on the street though (in a safe manner of course).

7) Interesting conclusion to this story - yesterday my car rolled backwards in parking lot and hit another car. I had it parked on incline with only the parking brake set (didn't put it in gear, from now on I will). It engaged and held the car for some time, but then simply released. The damage is minor - just some scratches on rear bumper, but could've been much worse. I wonder if this is related to what I described in #4.

Regards

[HumanWiki]

On point number 4. On the parking brake usage. Did you leave that engaged long? If so, you'll need to check for warping. If your brakes got so hot they faded to that extent, any sort or prolonged brake pressure while not moving can cause a warp.

Not always, but something to look out for if you got that hot.

And yes, that could be what made your ebrake let loose.

[cleoent]

Lol, this thread is hilarious.

Anyone used the stock brakes, with dot 4 fluid and brake cool ducts on the track? Does it make the stock setup usable for lapping? Or do you still get fade?

I'd love to avoid having to get track pads for a track day or two per year.

[HumanWiki]

Yes, I did exactly that. See my Road America thread.

Motul RBF 600, stock pads and rotors, track vents in. Went all weekend. The front pads were done end of the weekend. But they held all the way until then.

[cleoent]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

Yes, I did exactly that. See my Road America thread.

Motul RBF 600, stock pads and rotors, track vents in. Went all weekend. The front pads were done end of the weekend. But they held all the way until then.

Sweet. I'm OK going through pads but don't want to be swapping rotors and pads after each event.

[CleanAss]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

On point number 4. On the parking brake usage. Did you leave that engaged long?

No only used it to stop the car then released it. Here's pic of damage:

[BlackbeastSS2]

Great adventure, the track time, brakes fading and to cap it off with an accident. All serious, would have loved to have been there. Your adventure just need a little more of a story when you where driving. No beer cans rolling in the back seat? Kind of a cannon ball story, where is Burt Now a day's????

[mbar]

Originally Posted by cleoent

Sweet. I'm OK going through pads but don't want to be swapping rotors and pads after each event.

Looks like you will have to swap front pads after each event if you'll use stock...
If you are already spending your time installing the brake deflectors it won't take you any longer to swap the rotor (you have to take it off anyway). Same with taking off the caliper.
So....the only investment is to buy a set of track pads and rotors that will last about 7-10 track days (rotor should last 10-15 days).

Compromise (at your own risk) : Buy just a front set of Carbotech XP8 (not 10) for the front + a set of front rotors. With the XP8 front and stock in the rear you will probobly have good balance (in theory- I did not try it yet).

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by CleanAss

Thanks for all the feedback. To respond to some of the points:

1) I intentionally didn't change anything as per manual and went out in that hot temp with full stock setup because I wanted to discover what is the limit of the stock system if I were to push it on the street in the setup how I drive it every day.
Now you know what's not nearly good enough. A 50° cooler ambient isn't going to make all that much difference when you're seeing 800+ at the rotors/pads/calipers.

It's not clear whether your fade was pads (hard pedal) or fluid (soft pedal). But I wouldn't take a car of this weight out on track with anything less than Carbotech XP10 or G-Loc R10 pads, Motul RBF600 fluid, and some kind - any kind - of supplemental cooling. You have to be able to trust that your brakes will be there for you. Every time.


2) Ultimately I don't want to use anything "track specific". I'm one of those guys who wants to come to track, drive, and leave, without changing anything. I dislike the idea of having some slicks and different cooling when you're out on the track. I want my car to handle the same regardless of track or street - I don't want to learn 2 different driving modes. Just a personal preference I guess. Especially I hate the idea of these brake ducts that "expose the brakes to the elements". There's a ton of sand and debris flying around the track; it's the last place I want to expose my brakes.

3) However, for my next track day, I will certainly put in higher temp fluid and will swap out the pads for something higher temp. We'll see how far that gets me without brake ducts.
If you don't want to swap pads (which I understand), you'll just have to put up with the downsides on the street of pads that are legitimately track-capable. In my experience, Carbotech XP10 pads (or G-Loc R10's) ought to be enough pad for your track time while still having sufficient cold bite for normal street duty. You'll just have to be prepared to deal with some dust and at least occasional noise.

You don't need slicks at this stage, but if you're going to stick with this you really should invest in a dedicated set of wheels and tires for the track time. Any top-shelf max performance summer tire will be enough. Hint: mount the track setup on your car when you bleed your brakes in preparation for each track day/weekend, and bring two of your street wheels/tires along in case you get a flat on a track tire or run it down into the cord.


4) When I say "experienced complete break failure" what I meant is that when I rolled out to parking lot in 1st gear which would go less than 5 mph, I couldn't stop at that 5 mph using brakes - they did nothing; I ended up resorting to the parking break to stop the car.
A car in that condition should not be out on the track.


5) This picture probably does have me breaking into a turn
If you were to get completely off the brakes at or a bit before that point, the car should turn in very, very nicely. I wonder if you might have been a little 'early' there.


6) is 2:08 a good time? I think many cars run less than 2 minutes there. I could've easily done less than 2 minutes with working brakes. I set that 2:08 time in the first 3 laps of the day where I overheated the brakes. It was the first time I ever drove this car on the track, and while I braked aggressively, I by no means pushed the car to the limit. I was just exploring. Plus traction control and a passenger. After that, the rest of the day I set 2:10 time on 90% of laps using almost engine braking exclusively (and a little excessive sideways action, which was fun for my passenger . I actually enjoyed purposefully not using the brakes as it felt like go karting where I have to focus on carrying maximum speed through the turns. There was a last gen Corvette Z06 in the same group who I kept passing and it felt like I was cruising, while he was trying so hard, almost flying off the track on every corner. I don't have much experience on track, maybe have been total of 10 times on 3-4 different tracks. I do have a lot of experience on the street though (in a safe manner of course).
8 seconds in two minutes is an eternity, particularly given that you're only seeing 2 or 3 seconds difference between the laps with full braking and those where you were intentionally going easy because of reduced braking capability. 2:05 would be a much more realistic expectation at least for now, and it might be harder to get there than you currently think.


7) Interesting conclusion to this story - yesterday my car rolled backwards in parking lot and hit another car. I had it parked on incline with only the parking brake set (didn't put it in gear, from now on I will). It engaged and held the car for some time, but then simply released. The damage is minor - just some scratches on rear bumper, but could've been much worse. I wonder if this is related to what I described in #4.

Regards

At least your parking brake failure didn't happen at the track. Don't ever set the P-brake after running a session. Chock a tire if you're paddock spot is on a slope. And leave it in either 1st or reverse every time you park it no matter where that might be.

Yup, "brake" vs "break" again . . . sure, it's obvious what you meant. And equally apparent that you don't care enough about how it looks to the people who would help you ... to get it right. Not sugar-coated but intended helpfully.


Norm

[12blkgrayRS]

Like I said, I still have my V6 brakes with the fluid change and still brakes fine. It's your experience that determines when you should brake around certain areas on the track. I very rarely use my brakes for most corners and usually just coast and modulate the throttle. The biggest usage is after a long straight to slow down for the next corner. never in a turn. sometimes this can cause the front end to push. If you have to brake in a corner then you probably are braking too late.
See my vid:

From Texas world Speedway.

[Emoto]

Originally Posted by CleanAss

I have about 9000 miles on the car. The track was about 110 degrees this weekend, hitting 113 at one point. I was amazed with all aspects of the car, except the braking system.

Initially I did completely aggressive braking and it took only 3 laps to overheat my front brakes to 850 degrees rendering them completely useless, even when rolling 5 mph. Afterwards I did very light breaking and relying more on engine breaking successfully keeping them withing 400 degrees.

I posted 2:09 time within those first few laps, right before I overheated the brakes. However, I could've done much better, as this was my first time driving this car on the track and I was very cautious about it. Without aggressive braking I posted consisted 2:10 time.

I didn't use the racing break plastic replacement cover that came from factory. I wanted to see how the car would stand up in stock form. Only mods I have is throttle body and subwoofer in the back (yes I rolled with it, and AC on

If it weren't for the breaks, this car would be completely incredible. Total control through the corners. Throttle very gradual and easy to modulate oversteer through corners. I used all the traction control and stabilitrack features with the "track" mode. I found the traction control to be perfect as it saved me well a few times I almost lost it, yet allowed me to powerslide through the corners. The revmatch for stickshift is incredible. Perfect for those hot corners. Also first gear tops out at 52 mph making hairpins awesome power drifts as the transmission lets you shift into 1st at any RPM like butter.

The power band is great and I could do majority of the track in 3rd gear. Few sections I would do in 2nd, and one corner in first. Few high speed sections in 4th. Don't think I went faster than 130mph anywhere.

The car does start to exhibit some body roll when throwing full weight into corners left then right at 90mph and smashing it atop 3rd. Still, feels very minor and managable.

Now only question: why should I install break ducts and not simply upgrade to better breaking compound?

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

And, for the love of all that is good and decent, it is BRAKE, not BREAK. When you use "Break" you sound like a moron, even if you are not one.

[12blkgrayRS]

<tear> best laugh I had all day....LOL

[Team STILLEN]

Joe@STILLEN here chiming in!

I have taken my 16 1SS 6spd manual with MRC and NPP to the track a few times now.

I did all the recommended fluid changes and also installed the cooling system ducts that GM mandates you do before tracking the car. The rear diff fluid must be changed as well after break in before you track it, and also after every track day it is recommended. I have also changed the trans fluid out as well. Currently I am at about 14k miles on my SS, it also serves as a commuter for me sometimes.

I used our AP RACING R3 fluid, which is the best fluid you can get before stepping into a AP race fluid.

No change in pads, the factory pads are actually quite capable in my opinion.

I have done ACS Roval and Infield so far and plan to go to many more of the local courses soon.

I did not experience any brake fade at all, conditions were not quite as bad as yours were though as far as ambient temps.

I do consider myself a pretty experienced driver and know how to manage a car with respect to braking zones and heat management.

The SS with MRC is quite a capable performer. I am very impressed with it. On street tires, NITTO NT555G2 in 275/35 and 305/30 20s I was able to post a 2:03 flat at ACS ROVAL, my first time in this car at that track. ACS Infield with NITTO NT01s, 19s, square setup 285/30 all around, I was able to do a 1:19.

This is with the car in FULL TRACK MODE with respect to the assist systems.

I look forward to seeing more 6th gens in all iterations on the tracks across the nation and what people report back, maybe meet some local track heads in 6th gens.