Prediction: Reviewers will spec the ZL1 close to the GT500 but not "better" than

[radz28]

Originally Posted by RickD

I wonder if they are going to go with a gear skip to beat the tax? If they do, I hope it is easily defeatable.

I'm sure that will continue. I believe you can either tune-out the "Skip Shift" and you used to be able to get an eliminator but I haven't noticed if that's still the case.

[thePill]

Here is a budget supercar shootout from Motor Trend between the GT500 SVT, the Z06 Carbon and the GT-R. Its 20 minutes long but pretty entertaining...

Before you watch, the GT-R destroys the GT500 and whoops the Z06.

[Number 3]

My only point was GM has not provided performance numbers to compare anything to it. You and I can guess about like Ford can.

GM has said 1) it's pretty awesome and we expect to beat our competition and 2) from most everything, expect us to under promise and over deliver.

Keep in mind, Ford can tweak HP a bit to try to prepare, but as GM hasn't given a HP number, what do they shoot for? If they add even a few HP, you are in a complete recalibration phase for emissions and durability and you can't do that in just a few months.

So I wasn't trying to imply the OP was off base, it's just the question is based on a lot of conjecture at this point as to what the ZL1 will actually do...........relative to a CTS-V AND to a Mustang.

By the way, Ford isn't any faster than GM. You guys may not want to believe me, but if Ford does manage a major HP bump to combat the ZL1 it was decided a while ago, not the day after the Chicago Auto Show. And I'm guessing Ford has as keen an eye on the Camaro as you guys do. Just like GM, they have a plan nad they are running their play.

[DevilKnightFalcon]

If you are talking about track times you realize that you are comparing a car with absolutely ancient suspension against a car that is cutting edge and top of the line in every way. The ZL1 will beat the GT500 and then Ford will tweak it to try and make it better and the battle will go on.

[thePill]

My only point was GM has not provided performance numbers to compare anything to it. You and I can guess about like Ford can.

I think an educated guess based on the usage of the LSA and the TR6060 MG9 could get Ford pretty close.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by DevilKnightFalcon

If you are talking about track times you realize that you are comparing a car with absolutely ancient suspension against a car that is cutting edge and top of the line in every way. The ZL1 will beat the GT500 and then Ford will tweak it to try and make it better and the battle will go on.

Ancient suspension or not, the GT500 was only 3 seconds behind the Z06 at Willow and cost half of what the Z06 does and weighs 600lbs more. I will stick with the Ancient suspension and use modern day springs as opposed to the Transverse leaf spring the Vette uses.

[garagelogic]

2007 GT500 was rumored to be "more than" 450HP when the car first hit the trade show circuit and received magazine articles. By the time the car went to production, it was making 500HP. I figure the same will hold true for the ZL1; higher than the 556HP the CTS-V has now.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t_drive_review

http://www.insideline.com/ford/shelb...bra-gt500.html

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...500/index.html

[thePill]

Originally Posted by garagelogic

2007 GT500 was rumored to be "more than" 450HP when the car first hit the trade show circuit and received magazine articles. By the time the car went to production, it was making 500HP. I figure the same will hold true for the ZL1; higher than the 556HP the CTS-V has now.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t_drive_review

http://www.insideline.com/ford/shelb...bra-gt500.html

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...500/index.html

It was the introduction of the TR6060 that allowed Ford to push the 5.4 up to 500. The common T56 just couldn't handle the torque at the time. It's kinda the same situation the ZL1 will be in, do they still use the 6060 MG9 and push the torque pass the rated 560ft lbs? or do they upgrade completely to the MH3 and risk pushing the cost up another $2100? I guess they could push beyond 560, but not sure Tremec would like that nor would they cover the cost involved from Mass Flywheel/Dual Clutch and Transmission failures...

[91Z28350]

That was a great video review! Unbiased and truthful. The GT500 acquitted itself very well. I was surprised at the improvement's they have made to the GTR, those were phenomenal numbers. That being said, I would still take the Z06; to me, the Z06 is still "the beast", which is funny, because that is what I called it the first time I drove one, back in '07.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by 91Z28350

That was a great video review! Unbiased and truthful. The GT500 acquitted itself very well. I was surprised at the improvement's they have made to the GTR, those were phenomenal numbers. That being said, I would still take the Z06; to me, the Z06 is still "the beast", which is funny, because that is what I called it the first time I drove one, back in '07.

I was a little surprised, and please with the comments. And, yes, to the Z06. It has character I don't think Godzilla has

Great video though - That Shelby is a force to be messed with.

[Sleestack]

Originally Posted by DevilKnightFalcon

If you are talking about track times you realize that you are comparing a car with absolutely ancient suspension against a car that is cutting edge and top of the line in every way. The ZL1 will beat the GT500 and then Ford will tweak it to try and make it better and the battle will go on.

If these result are are from 'ancient', you better pray there is not an upgrade in the works...

Complete Lightning Lap Times 2006 to 2011
25 3:03.6 CHEVROLET CORVETTE(Z51) LL2 8/07
26 3:03.8 PORSCHE SPYDER LL3 2/11
27 3:04.0 CADILLAC CTS-V SEDAN LL2 11/08
28 3:04.0 FORD MUSTANG GT500 LL2 2/11
29 3:04.2 CADILLAC CTS-V COUPE LL3 2/11
30 3:04.5 LOTUS EXIGE S LL3 8/07
31 3:05.4 BMW M3 COUPE LL2 2/10
32 3:05.4 LEXUS IS F LL2 2/11
33 3:05.6 BMW M3 COUPE LL2 11/08
34 3:05.6 PORSCHE 911 CARRERA S LL3 2/10
35 3:05.8 PORSCHE CAYMAN S LL3 2/10
36 3:05.8 PORSCHE 911 TURBO LL4 8/07

[detltu]

My thoughts on all of this.

This has been going on for years. Why is this new to anyone. GM benchmarked the 2010 GT500 and probably made some assumptions about what a 2012 GT500 would perform like. They then set out to exceed it. Does that mean that it will out perform the 2012 GT500. No. You know why? Because Ford said, "hey, I bet GM is going to come out with a GT500 fighter and we better make sure they won't beat us" So they made their own predictions about what GM expects from the 2012 GT500, and how GM might out perform that, and then Ford figured out how they could outperform that.

What you end up with is the ZL1 will be better than the GT500 in some categories, and the GT500 will be better than the ZL1 in some categories. Maybe one accelerates faster than the other, maybe one is faster around the track. Who knows until we can line the cars up side by side.

As far as factory performance numbers:

GM puts a lot more hours behind the wheel to get their performance numbers than Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Road and Track, etc. do. It is misleading to compare factory numbers to what the magazines get in a test. For the most part the average owner has no shot at achieving the numbers GM or Ford gets from their testing, because the average owner won't and can't put in the time to achieve those numbers. The magazines don't have the cars long enough to get the best times out of them. They may get 98-99% of the performance out of them, but that last few percent takes exponentially more seat time to achieve. Manufacturers numbers are what the car is capable of under ideal conditions and should never be compared to magazine numbers of other cars.

Last thing: we haven't been given all of the details of this car for a reason. Anybody could guess that the car is around 550hp because we know the cadillac is around that number, we can all guess on the weight and we can probably get pretty close. GM has the numbers including price nailed down pretty close, but there is still time for any of that to change. Some of the info is withheald for competitive reasons and almost all of it is withheld because it is not set in stone yet and nobody wants to say x hp, x lbs, or x $ and have to come back and say actually the numbers have changed in a slightly negative way.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Sleestack

If these result are are from 'ancient', you better pray there is not an upgrade in the works...

Complete Lightning Lap Times 2006 to 2011
25 3:03.6 CHEVROLET CORVETTE(Z51) LL2 8/07
26 3:03.8 PORSCHE SPYDER LL3 2/11
27 3:04.0 CADILLAC CTS-V SEDAN LL2 11/08
28 3:04.0 FORD MUSTANG GT500 LL2 2/11
29 3:04.2 CADILLAC CTS-V COUPE LL3 2/11
30 3:04.5 LOTUS EXIGE S LL3 8/07
31 3:05.4 BMW M3 COUPE LL2 2/10
32 3:05.4 LEXUS IS F LL2 2/11
33 3:05.6 BMW M3 COUPE LL2 11/08
34 3:05.6 PORSCHE 911 CARRERA S LL3 2/10
35 3:05.8 PORSCHE CAYMAN S LL3 2/10
36 3:05.8 PORSCHE 911 TURBO LL4 8/07

There's only so much one can do with that telephone pole of a rear end...

Originally Posted by detltu

My thoughts on all of this.

This has been going on for years. Why is this new to anyone. GM benchmarked the 2010 GT500 and probably made some assumptions about what a 2012 GT500 would perform like. They then set out to exceed it. Does that mean that it will out perform the 2012 GT500. No. You know why? Because Ford said, "hey, I bet GM is going to come out with a GT500 fighter and we better make sure they won't beat us" So they made their own predictions about what GM expects from the 2012 GT500, and how GM might out perform that, and then Ford figured out how they could outperform that.

What you end up with is the ZL1 will be better than the GT500 in some categories, and the GT500 will be better than the ZL1 in some categories. Maybe one accelerates faster than the other, maybe one is faster around the track. Who knows until we can line the cars up side by side.

As far as factory performance numbers:

GM puts a lot more hours behind the wheel to get their performance numbers than Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Road and Track, etc. do. It is misleading to compare factory numbers to what the magazines get in a test. For the most part the average owner has no shot at achieving the numbers GM or Ford gets from their testing, because the average owner won't and can't put in the time to achieve those numbers. The magazines don't have the cars long enough to get the best times out of them. They may get 98-99% of the performance out of them, but that last few percent takes exponentially more seat time to achieve. Manufacturers numbers are what the car is capable of under ideal conditions and should never be compared to magazine numbers of other cars.

Last thing: we haven't been given all of the details of this car for a reason. Anybody could guess that the car is around 550hp because we know the cadillac is around that number, we can all guess on the weight and we can probably get pretty close. GM has the numbers including price nailed down pretty close, but there is still time for any of that to change. Some of the info is withheald for competitive reasons and almost all of it is withheld because it is not set in stone yet and nobody wants to say x hp, x lbs, or x $ and have to come back and say actually the numbers have changed in a slightly negative way.

POST OF THE DAY! Many KUDOS to you

[Synyster]

Originally Posted by bobby35ny

One thing that bother me a tad. Chevy showed the car a little too soon and tipped thier hand. Ford moves FAST, not like GM. They can get the few HP they need to surpass a ZL1 by Jan 2012. They can test against a CTS-V and say OK, we need lets say 25hp and 30lbs of TQ to take the ZL1, and get it done by the time the ZL1 ships.
-Bobby

Exactly. That's one thing that Ford is VERY good at.