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Old 10-19-2015, 02:43 PM   #1
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Dyno Battle: GT350, GT350R, and Camaro Z/28

http://wot.motortrend.com/dyno-battl...pr=18332466311

There ain't no replacement for displacement, and if you need proof, check out the dyno chart below. We threw a 2016 Ford Shelby GT350 Mustang on the dyno, followed by the hardcore GT350R, just to get a look at the torque curve from the highest-revving V-8 Ford has ever put in a car.

And then for fun, we brought along a 2015 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28.

The Ford Voodoo engine is a high-revving work of engineering art. 526 hp from just 5.2 liters of displacement thanks to a power peak at a lofty 7,500 rpm and an 8,250-rpm fuel-cut. A flat-plane crank helps take advantage of intake and exhaust resonances, and quad overhead cams operate 32 big valves with 14 mm of lift—about as much as you'll ever see.

And then, there's the General Motors LS7: 7,008 cc of big American muscle, with just 16 valves, all operated by pushrods. Somehow by the grace of god (and titanium con rods), GM got this 101.6-mm-bore monster to rev to 7,100 rpm. It's rated 505 hp and 481 lb-ft of torque — 21 hp fewer than the Ford, but 52 lb-ft more.

So what happens when you put them on the dyno?

Well, at 1.500 rpm, the GT350R makes 239 lb-ft of torque. The Z/28 makes 341, 102 lb-ft more (numbers taken from a different run in which recording was started earlier).

In fact, from idle to about 3400 rpm, the Z/28 produces between 100 and 120 lb-ft more torque than the Shelby does. Around town, this enormous torque advantage, combined with slightly shorter gears, makes the Z/28 feel immensely more powerful.

However, things look different higher in the rev range. At 3,600 rpm, the Z/28's advantage has dropped to just 46 lb-ft. And while the Z/28's torque continues to rise until just under 5,000 rpm, its advantage over the much smaller GT350's V-8 doesn't.

The high-revving (for a pushrod) LS7 peaks in power at 6,200 rpm, and it runs into its rev limiter at 7,100 rpm — at which point the GT350 still hasn't even hit peak power.

But look at how close those power peaks are:
Car Peak Dyno Power Peak Dyno Torque
Shelby GT350 467 hp 374 lb-ft
Camaro Z/28 469 hp 438 lb-ft
Shelby GT350R 471 hp 376 lb-ft

The curves may look entirely different, but the output is the same: the difference in peak output between the Shelby GT350, the GT350R, and the Camaro Z/28 is not significant.

But, you may point out, the GT350 has a 21-hp advantage in its power rating? Where did it go?

Well, it could be that our long-term Z/28 has an engine that's fully broken in (it has over 16,000 miles on its odometer, compared to just 3,000 miles on the Fords.) Or it could be that the Camaro's drivetrain is more efficient at getting power to its wheels. Also remember that this test was conducted in ambient air temperatures hovering around the 100-degree mark. And all cars were fueled with 91-octane gas, which is the best we can get in California.

With 13:1 compression and all those revs, the Mustang's engine seemed more sensitive to the heat. So these results might have been different on East-Coast 93-octane fuel or in cooler, more humid conditions.

Still, although it's fun to point out that the Z/28 and GT350 put the same exact amount of peak power to their wheels remember that the peak number is just one number. It's the shape of the curve that matters so much.

Despite the Z/28's massive torque advantage, it's no quicker than the GT350R. They're pretty close to even—which is exactly what you'd expect given their similar weight-to-power ratios.

And, since we're big fans of muscle-car rivalries, that's exactly how we'd like to see it.
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Old 10-20-2015, 01:00 AM   #2
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More torque generally means more tractability. I still want to see a same day duel between the Z/28 and the GT350R at Laguna Seca w/Randy Pobst driving. These cars are systems, and the engine's only one part of the puzzle...
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Old 10-20-2015, 05:23 PM   #3
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Man, I am really excited to see these cars go head to head, that is going to be epic!!
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Old 10-20-2015, 06:56 PM   #4
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I realize all dyno's are different and different conditions effect the rwhp numbers, but for them to be running 91 octane on a 100 degree day, and the car still made 470 at the wheels, shows this car is way underrated at 505 at the crank. Figure running 93 octane on a 70 degree day, the car could pick up another 15 to 20 horsepower. I have to wonder what they did to the engine for the Z/28 since I've never heard of a C6 Z06 making more than 450 rwhp and most are in the 440 range. Could the drivetrain be that more efficient in the Z/28?

Same goes for the Shelby. If these power numbers are accurate, they make more than 526 at the crank.
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Old 10-20-2015, 07:09 PM   #5
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Very nice, nice to see the ol' z28 compete with the newly released gt350s.
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Old 10-20-2015, 10:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IOMZL1 View Post
http://wot.motortrend.com/dyno-battl...pr=18332466311

There ain't no replacement for displacement, and if you need proof, check out the dyno chart below. We threw a 2016 Ford Shelby GT350 Mustang on the dyno, followed by the hardcore GT350R, just to get a look at the torque curve from the highest-revving V-8 Ford has ever put in a car.

And then for fun, we brought along a 2015 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28.

The Ford Voodoo engine is a high-revving work of engineering art. 526 hp from just 5.2 liters of displacement thanks to a power peak at a lofty 7,500 rpm and an 8,250-rpm fuel-cut. A flat-plane crank helps take advantage of intake and exhaust resonances, and quad overhead cams operate 32 big valves with 14 mm of lift—about as much as you'll ever see.

And then, there's the General Motors LS7: 7,008 cc of big American muscle, with just 16 valves, all operated by pushrods. Somehow by the grace of god (and titanium con rods), GM got this 101.6-mm-bore monster to rev to 7,100 rpm. It's rated 505 hp and 481 lb-ft of torque — 21 hp fewer than the Ford, but 52 lb-ft more.

So what happens when you put them on the dyno?

Well, at 1.500 rpm, the GT350R makes 239 lb-ft of torque. The Z/28 makes 341, 102 lb-ft more (numbers taken from a different run in which recording was started earlier).

In fact, from idle to about 3400 rpm, the Z/28 produces between 100 and 120 lb-ft more torque than the Shelby does. Around town, this enormous torque advantage, combined with slightly shorter gears, makes the Z/28 feel immensely more powerful.

However, things look different higher in the rev range. At 3,600 rpm, the Z/28's advantage has dropped to just 46 lb-ft. And while the Z/28's torque continues to rise until just under 5,000 rpm, its advantage over the much smaller GT350's V-8 doesn't.

The high-revving (for a pushrod) LS7 peaks in power at 6,200 rpm, and it runs into its rev limiter at 7,100 rpm — at which point the GT350 still hasn't even hit peak power.

But look at how close those power peaks are:
Car Peak Dyno Power Peak Dyno Torque
Shelby GT350 467 hp 374 lb-ft
Camaro Z/28 469 hp 438 lb-ft
Shelby GT350R 471 hp 376 lb-ft

The curves may look entirely different, but the output is the same: the difference in peak output between the Shelby GT350, the GT350R, and the Camaro Z/28 is not significant.

But, you may point out, the GT350 has a 21-hp advantage in its power rating? Where did it go?

Well, it could be that our long-term Z/28 has an engine that's fully broken in (it has over 16,000 miles on its odometer, compared to just 3,000 miles on the Fords.) Or it could be that the Camaro's drivetrain is more efficient at getting power to its wheels. Also remember that this test was conducted in ambient air temperatures hovering around the 100-degree mark. And all cars were fueled with 91-octane gas, which is the best we can get in California.

With 13:1 compression and all those revs, the Mustang's engine seemed more sensitive to the heat. So these results might have been different on East-Coast 93-octane fuel or in cooler, more humid conditions.

Still, although it's fun to point out that the Z/28 and GT350 put the same exact amount of peak power to their wheels remember that the peak number is just one number. It's the shape of the curve that matters so much.

Despite the Z/28's massive torque advantage, it's no quicker than the GT350R. They're pretty close to even—which is exactly what you'd expect given their similar weight-to-power ratios.

And, since we're big fans of muscle-car rivalries, that's exactly how we'd like to see it.
I am yet to see a shop dyno a Z28 with that much power to the wheels especially on 91 octane.
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Old 10-21-2015, 06:46 AM   #7
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As an additional data point, i have just had my Z28 upgraded (headers, headwork, stage 3 cam) and have attached the dyno sheet. The dyno run was done in approx 85 degree temps with 93 octane fuel and the engine has done 5000 miles.

Stock numbers were 462HP/438TQ, a little less than the Motortrend Z running 91 octane. Post mods, its a completely different animal though with 577HP/514TQ.
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:24 AM   #8
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This is a cool post. Thank you for the info.

That being said, the Z28 and GT350R are two completely different animals.

The Z28's engineering feat was taking a big, heavy, relatively mediocre Camaro platform and turning it into a track monster by stripping it down. As a result, while the Z28 puts down great track numbers, its usability has been drastically reduced. It is a rough, basic stripper car.

Ford built an entire vehicle from the ground up. As a result, the GT350R will put down Z28 numbers - probably better numbers - while maintaining creature comforts and daily usability.

You can daily drive a GT350R in perfect comfort if you want to. You can't really do that with a Z28. The GT350R's beauty in engineering is that it is a no-compromise machine whereas the entire Z28 platform was developed around compromises. While I respect the Z28, I would never buy one. I would truly love to own a GT350R. Hell, throw on a set of GMax AS-03's and I will drive it to work in 4 inches of snow. Those stats can't be reflected on a dyno. I am interested to see what GM will do with the Gen 6 Z28 now that they actually have a track oriented chassis.
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:14 AM   #9
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The Z28 can definitelly be daily driven, no different to 350R. I have a 2SS 1LE that I daily. I never turn on the A/C. My mylink, navigation, blue tooth never get used. I wish my suspension was stiffer and the car sat lower. Hardcore performance guys have no issue with the "purety" of the Z28.

Whats even more amazing about the Z28 was that GM did it on an older / already existing chasis. No doubt the GT350R will he a great car but it will only be stepping into the territory that the Z28 has already explored.
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Old 10-21-2015, 11:40 AM   #10
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The Z28 can definitelly be daily driven, no different to 350R. I have a 2SS 1LE that I daily. I never turn on the A/C. My mylink, navigation, blue tooth never get used. I wish my suspension was stiffer and the car sat lower. Hardcore performance guys have no issue with the "purety" of the Z28.

Whats even more amazing about the Z28 was that GM did it on an older / already existing chasis. No doubt the GT350R will he a great car but it will only be stepping into the territory that the Z28 has already explored.
See, with the GT350R, I can go just as fast if not faster, and I can do it with a warm butt in the wintertime, variable exhaust controls for my listening pleasure (IMO it sounds way better than a Z28, that flat plane crank motor sounds insane) and variable ride control with a fancy shmancy stereo. Why I'd pay the same for a Z28 that rides and behaves like an F-body with similar interior quality and features escapes me.
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Old 10-21-2015, 12:08 PM   #11
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The one good thing that Ford did over GM was make their 350s and incredible bargain. Ford priced their vehicles very approapriately. Too bad dealer greed and mark ups will negate that.
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Old 10-21-2015, 12:18 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
See, with the GT350R, I can go just as fast if not faster, and I can do it with a warm butt in the wintertime, variable exhaust controls for my listening pleasure (IMO it sounds way better than a Z28, that flat plane crank motor sounds insane) and variable ride control with a fancy shmancy stereo. Why I'd pay the same for a Z28 that rides and behaves like an F-body with similar interior quality and features escapes me.
Take that POS GT350R and drop it in a crusher, its 7 years newer then the Z/28 and still only gets close to the Z/28, funny how most complain but don't own one or the other, if you add a cab to the car you can get 100+rwhp to it, take the car to the track and have fun, there will always be faster cars.

P.S. is the 1ss gen6 car not faster now then the GT350?
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Old 10-21-2015, 01:02 PM   #13
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I know the old 15% drivetrain loss is outdated but isn't this dyno only showing like 8% loss for the Z/28 and only 9% for the GT350R?
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Old 10-21-2015, 01:06 PM   #14
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Take that POS GT350R and drop it in a crusher, its 7 years newer then the Z/28 and still only gets close to the Z/28, funny how most complain but don't own one or the other, if you add a cab to the car you can get 100+rwhp to it, take the car to the track and have fun, there will always be faster cars.

P.S. is the 1ss gen6 car not faster now then the GT350?
It's a year and a half older than the GT350R. Well, truthfully, it's probably the same age as the GT350R since it probably took Ford a lot longer to design a new car from the ground up than for GM to modify an existing platform.

If you add a "cab" (cam?) to the car, it is no longer that car. LS7's are already the least reliable LS motor GM ever designed in terms of failure rate history. Given the propensity for LS motors to fail in short order after cam swaps these days, I'd skip messing with the stock cam. At that point, you may as well go FI. And at that point, you may as well just get the ZL1.
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