Break in Procedure - Page 5

FlightSoftware · 01-02-2016, 04:04 PM

Love or hate Onstar, it's gotta be awesome to be GM and have tons of telemetry streaming in from millions of cars. They'll be able to match the driving history of a car with its maintenance history and determine empirically what, if any, changes to make to their recommended break in procedure.

You'd have to believe they're either evil or stupid to recommend a procedure that doesn't work. And now, they have the data to know for sure if it's working.

mikeyg36 · 01-02-2016, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlightSoftware

Love or hate Onstar, it's gotta be awesome to be GM and have tons of telemetry streaming in from millions of cars. They'll be able to match the driving history of a car with its maintenance history and determine empirically what, if any, changes to make to their recommended break in procedure.

You'd have to believe they're either evil or stupid to recommend a procedure that doesn't work. And now, they have the data to know for sure if it's working.

They do not record data like that through onstar except on the volt which was an opt in program. The black box records data like that but it is not accessible by a dealer or GM.

FlightSoftware · 01-02-2016, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyg36

They do not record data like that through onstar except on the volt which was an opt in program. The black box records data like that but it is not accessible by a dealer or GM.

I believe you that this is a correct statement of GM's official position.

But the temptation to look at the data would be overwhelming. So many profitable things could be discovered by data mining the driving and maintenance histories. I'm not saying you're wrong or that they're really doing it,but. Well. Volkswagen got caught doing something that was just pants on heads retarded and I would have bet there was NO way anyone would be dumb enough to do -that-, so...

mikeyg36 · 01-02-2016, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlightSoftware

I believe you that this is a correct statement of GM's official position.

But the temptation to look at the data would be overwhelming. So many profitable things could be discovered by data mining the driving and maintenance histories. I'm not saying you're wrong or that they're really doing it,but. Well. Volkswagen got caught doing something that was just pants on heads retarded and I would have bet there was NO way anyone would be dumb enough to do -that-, so...

I completely agree with you, they probably could do it, but it would be complete suicide if they did and used it against anyone. The money from the lawsuits would completely outweigh the benefits of using the information. Plus the break in is just a "recommendation".

*SSE 4 2SS* · 01-02-2016, 10:16 PM

This is how i break in all of my engines and is supported by information from a reputable engine builder and designer.

You are obviously free to break in the car anyway you wish. Hopefully to put the matter to rest (bwahahaha) there is reasoning for this style of break-in and the procedure to be followed.

This is from Darin Morgan.

The BEST Break for a new car. "very long"
“DISCLAIMER” Do not use the break in procedure below. Do not do hard acceleration runs and load your engine hard. You don't need this much power. I am not responsible for any damage, breakage or massive power increase caused by this crazy break in procedure. Just because every professional engine builder uses this procedure is no reason you should.

IMHO
The manual is written by people following “Corporate procedure” in order to mitigate the company’s exposure both legally and financially. If you don’t do what is outlined in their little manual they have ammo in court and for warranty if they so choose. It has almost nothing to do with how to properly break in an engine.
Some guy takes a new car out and turns the traction control off. He lays the coals to it like he has in his little import and WAMMO, he raps it around a telephone pole. Now what do you think the legal implications would be if the manual said to do 20 -30 hard acceleration runs and something like this happened. The manual has far less to do with break in and much more to do with legal exposure.

For over 25 years I, my family and every single person I am friends with, hang around with and work with build, test, tune, design and race for a living or sport. My brother and I have built some of the fastest engines in the world for just about every form of motor sports you care to name. Engines costing well over 100k-150k. I don’t say this to toot my horn but to give some measure of my background and experience. I do so because the statements I am making in this post will no doubt be controversial for those who have no experience with engine building, component design and high end research and development.

Ask 100 professional engine builders what break in procedure they use (no matter the form of motor sports) and I would venture that 100% would say LOAD them hard and change the oil often. It’s the ONLY way to properly break in an engine and anyone who says otherwise has not a clue what they are talking about. Why do you load the engine? The main reason is ring seal. From a metallurgical stand point both the rings and cylinder walls must “relax” and “conform” in order to properly mate and seal. If this is not done properly, quickly and in proper form the chances of a proper ring seal can be lost for ever. Your rings and cylinder wall wear could increase; the engine will use more oil and make less power. The worse the cylinder hone and free roundness of the ring are, the harder you better load the engine or you don’t have a chance in hell of getting the rings to seal. Some people are worried that they may break something. That may happen then again it may not. It may happen if you don’t use this break in procedure and then again it might not. For me, if its going to break its going to do it in the first thirty minutes of my taking possession of the vehicle I assure you! I will find the weak link now, not later. The break in procedure here is the way ALL our engines are being, and should be broke in.
When I say to make hard acceleration runs and load the engine I am not proposing you drop the clutch at 4200+rpm. The consequences of this could be a dropped drive shaft, input shaft, output shaft or the trans itself. Acceleration runs are not the same as drag racing the thing from stop light to stop light and acting like a 16 year old behind the wheel.. You must be in a rolling start and in the middle of low gear you floor the throttle and let the trans shift all the way to what ever speed you wish then let out of the throttle. DO NOT down shift, not ever, not even once during the course of these runs for at least 250-300miles. I put the car in neutral and release all loads after the run but that me. I don’t propose anyone doing this. Its dangerous and you could throw the thing into reverse if your not very careful. If you do not have professional driving experience, don’t do it. If you need more info go here

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Here is what I do and what I am doing as well as the results from doing so.

Just drove mine off the lot. Has 21 miles on it. The dealer REFUSED to fill it with 93 octane. I told him that it was no big deal just leaves what fuel is in it from the factory and I will fill it at a station across the street.

I had about 25 miles on it when I laid into it with all it had and man oh man what a fricken pooch! It would not even begin to bark the rear tire from a dead stop/full throttle up to 30-35miles and even BOGGED the engine from a dead start.

I have kept doing hard acceleration runs then shift neutral when it hit 90mph. Its got 50miles on it and you can feel it coming around with each additional run. I let it cool down for a couple hours before I took it out again.

After the cool down I went back out. 50miles on the odometer and acceleration runs then shift neutral when it hit 90mph. She is starting to get a little life in her. You can feel the difference about ever five runs or so it gets a little more power.

At about 60miles of acceleration runs to 90mph. It will spin the tires up to second and the ass end will shimmy around a little now. I will let it cool down over night.

80miles on the odometer. Acceleration runs then shift neutral when it hit 90mph. . I can feel it pulling better and better after each acceleration run. Its finally started coming into some power and I mean right fricken NOW! It still feels a little sluggish on the shifts though.

135 miles on the odometer. Its really coming around now! It really wants to fry the tires all the way through low gear but wont quite do it. The traction control and stabiletrac are off but it won’t light them up and accelerate through low gear like a 400hp car should. I will let it cool down over night and lay into it in the morning and see how it goes. I have also noticed that the rear end is starting to squat when I accelerate from a dead launch. Good weight transition for the street but feels a little weird.

165miles on odometer and after overnight cool down. ITS ALIVE !!!! She will fry the tires anytime, anywhere all the way through first, shifts at 6200rpm and turns the tire some in second. Now this is what I wanted and hoped I would wake up to! It flat ass rips up the street all the way through the gears. I have driven a host of low 13, high 12 second cars on the street and this thing will do a low 13 second quarter right now, hands down, no question, no problem. I have driven a plethora of 10 second and 11 second cars as well so I have a good indication of where this stands. I was nothing short of shocked at the power increase. I should say that I was nothing short of shocked at the total lack of power for the first 50 miles or so. It didn’t have 250hp when I drove it off the lot and now, it’s a total animal!! I am loving this!

I now am driving it like I stole it and loving every single second. It’s unbelievable how the throttle response and acceleration has come around. It’s a whole new animal and what a mean little nasty animal it is. You hit the throttle and the power is right there, right now. When you hit the throttle it growls and barks, spins the tires and just hauls ass. I now have a perma-grin that a plastic surgeon could not hope to erase! This is, by far the neatest street car I have ever owned.

Quoted from another engine builder...

Most of the big 3 engineers I have met over the years (been building race & performance engines for over 38 years) are knowledgable enough to agree with what I have stated....but they have zero to do with the decisions corporate makes on these matters. The reason they want you to baby the car is so a material defect or problem probably wont show up until warranty expiration and nothing more. If you do some research (not internet hearsay) you will see validation to my claim of the "limited window for rings to properly seat".
Politics and misinformation are so rampant all around us with everything we do that it is a diservice to make claims based upon impression or interpetation, and not actual fact and in depth experiance like I am sharing here.

Just like those that believe there are no mods to improve a cars performance or longevity. "If the factory did not do it, it should not be done" mentallity would never lead us to releases like the COPO drag cars (look at just how many products are outright aftermarket and have NOTING to do with the GM brass and ivory tower managers only looking at the bottom line. Let the engineers loose and the vehicles would be built so well they would never wear out, but the price would be 100 times what the average buyer could afford.

There is always the sacrifices of quality, performance, economy that are the results of corporate directives and decisions.

mikeyg36 · 01-02-2016, 10:22 PM

Oh look someone around here knows how to back up their claims. What a concept. Good info SSE, hopefully that answers your question OP.

nyrfan · 01-02-2016, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyg36

Oh look someone around here knows how to back up their claims. What a concept. Good info SSE, hopefully that answers your question OP.

Woot woot!!!

mikeyg36 · 01-02-2016, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyrfan

Woot woot!!!

Oh look, the self-centered car ruiner decided to show up

nyrfan · 01-02-2016, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyg36

Oh look, the self-centered jerk car ruiner decided to show up

- Let me fix that for you!

mikeyg36 · 01-02-2016, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyrfan

- Let me fix that for you!

Sorry I forgot about that

paul84043 · 01-02-2016, 10:56 PM

The purpose of the break in period is to allow your mating surfaces to polish themselves against each other. Drive it like you stole it from day one and you're going to potentially destroy the temper on your mating surfaces, in particular your cam lobes.
Modern machining processes are not good enough to eliminate friction. Period.

You car. Break it in how you want.

mikeyg36 · 01-02-2016, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul84043

The purpose of the break in period is to allow your mating surfaces to polish themselves against each other. Drive it like you stole it from day one and you're going to potentially destroy the temper on your mating surfaces, in particular your cam lobes.
Modern machining processes are not good enough to eliminate friction. Period.

You car. Break it in how you want.

This may be the case with flat tappet cams. This is a hydraulic roller cam; there's no need to break it in.

Nightmare2012 · 01-03-2016, 02:59 PM

The way I broke in my truck and camaro was short burst of wot mixed with regular driving and some more wot 150k miles on the truck zero issues. The camaro isn't stock but still no issues lol

Bells · 01-03-2016, 03:30 PM

So the TL;DR on this thread is: drive hard, but change the oil often(500, 1500 miles??)?

The old "drive it super gentile" line always sounded more like "we can't legally tell you to drive fast" to me.

01-02-2016, 10:16 PM	#61
SSE 4 2SS Boosted Moderator Drives: Bone Stock LS3 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Marion Tx Posts: 15,493	This is how i break in all of my engines and is supported by information from a reputable engine builder and designer. You are obviously free to break in the car anyway you wish. Hopefully to put the matter to rest (bwahahaha) there is reasoning for this style of break-in and the procedure to be followed. This is from Darin Morgan. The BEST Break for a new car. "very long" “DISCLAIMER” Do not use the break in procedure below. Do not do hard acceleration runs and load your engine hard. You don't need this much power. I am not responsible for any damage, breakage or massive power increase caused by this crazy break in procedure. Just because every professional engine builder uses this procedure is no reason you should. IMHO The manual is written by people following “Corporate procedure” in order to mitigate the company’s exposure both legally and financially. If you don’t do what is outlined in their little manual they have ammo in court and for warranty if they so choose. It has almost nothing to do with how to properly break in an engine. Some guy takes a new car out and turns the traction control off. He lays the coals to it like he has in his little import and WAMMO, he raps it around a telephone pole. Now what do you think the legal implications would be if the manual said to do 20 -30 hard acceleration runs and something like this happened. The manual has far less to do with break in and much more to do with legal exposure. For over 25 years I, my family and every single person I am friends with, hang around with and work with build, test, tune, design and race for a living or sport. My brother and I have built some of the fastest engines in the world for just about every form of motor sports you care to name. Engines costing well over 100k-150k. I don’t say this to toot my horn but to give some measure of my background and experience. I do so because the statements I am making in this post will no doubt be controversial for those who have no experience with engine building, component design and high end research and development. Ask 100 professional engine builders what break in procedure they use (no matter the form of motor sports) and I would venture that 100% would say LOAD them hard and change the oil often. It’s the ONLY way to properly break in an engine and anyone who says otherwise has not a clue what they are talking about. Why do you load the engine? The main reason is ring seal. From a metallurgical stand point both the rings and cylinder walls must “relax” and “conform” in order to properly mate and seal. If this is not done properly, quickly and in proper form the chances of a proper ring seal can be lost for ever. Your rings and cylinder wall wear could increase; the engine will use more oil and make less power. The worse the cylinder hone and free roundness of the ring are, the harder you better load the engine or you don’t have a chance in hell of getting the rings to seal. Some people are worried that they may break something. That may happen then again it may not. It may happen if you don’t use this break in procedure and then again it might not. For me, if its going to break its going to do it in the first thirty minutes of my taking possession of the vehicle I assure you! I will find the weak link now, not later. The break in procedure here is the way ALL our engines are being, and should be broke in. When I say to make hard acceleration runs and load the engine I am not proposing you drop the clutch at 4200+rpm. The consequences of this could be a dropped drive shaft, input shaft, output shaft or the trans itself. Acceleration runs are not the same as drag racing the thing from stop light to stop light and acting like a 16 year old behind the wheel.. You must be in a rolling start and in the middle of low gear you floor the throttle and let the trans shift all the way to what ever speed you wish then let out of the throttle. DO NOT down shift, not ever, not even once during the course of these runs for at least 250-300miles. I put the car in neutral and release all loads after the run but that me. I don’t propose anyone doing this. Its dangerous and you could throw the thing into reverse if your not very careful. If you do not have professional driving experience, don’t do it. If you need more info go here http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm Here is what I do and what I am doing as well as the results from doing so. Just drove mine off the lot. Has 21 miles on it. The dealer REFUSED to fill it with 93 octane. I told him that it was no big deal just leaves what fuel is in it from the factory and I will fill it at a station across the street. I had about 25 miles on it when I laid into it with all it had and man oh man what a fricken pooch! It would not even begin to bark the rear tire from a dead stop/full throttle up to 30-35miles and even BOGGED the engine from a dead start. I have kept doing hard acceleration runs then shift neutral when it hit 90mph. Its got 50miles on it and you can feel it coming around with each additional run. I let it cool down for a couple hours before I took it out again. After the cool down I went back out. 50miles on the odometer and acceleration runs then shift neutral when it hit 90mph. She is starting to get a little life in her. You can feel the difference about ever five runs or so it gets a little more power. At about 60miles of acceleration runs to 90mph. It will spin the tires up to second and the ass end will shimmy around a little now. I will let it cool down over night. 80miles on the odometer. Acceleration runs then shift neutral when it hit 90mph. . I can feel it pulling better and better after each acceleration run. Its finally started coming into some power and I mean right fricken NOW! It still feels a little sluggish on the shifts though. 135 miles on the odometer. Its really coming around now! It really wants to fry the tires all the way through low gear but wont quite do it. The traction control and stabiletrac are off but it won’t light them up and accelerate through low gear like a 400hp car should. I will let it cool down over night and lay into it in the morning and see how it goes. I have also noticed that the rear end is starting to squat when I accelerate from a dead launch. Good weight transition for the street but feels a little weird. 165miles on odometer and after overnight cool down. ITS ALIVE !!!! She will fry the tires anytime, anywhere all the way through first, shifts at 6200rpm and turns the tire some in second. Now this is what I wanted and hoped I would wake up to! It flat ass rips up the street all the way through the gears. I have driven a host of low 13, high 12 second cars on the street and this thing will do a low 13 second quarter right now, hands down, no question, no problem. I have driven a plethora of 10 second and 11 second cars as well so I have a good indication of where this stands. I was nothing short of shocked at the power increase. I should say that I was nothing short of shocked at the total lack of power for the first 50 miles or so. It didn’t have 250hp when I drove it off the lot and now, it’s a total animal!! I am loving this! I now am driving it like I stole it and loving every single second. It’s unbelievable how the throttle response and acceleration has come around. It’s a whole new animal and what a mean little nasty animal it is. You hit the throttle and the power is right there, right now. When you hit the throttle it growls and barks, spins the tires and just hauls ass. I now have a perma-grin that a plastic surgeon could not hope to erase! This is, by far the neatest street car I have ever owned. Quoted from another engine builder... Most of the big 3 engineers I have met over the years (been building race & performance engines for over 38 years) are knowledgable enough to agree with what I have stated....but they have zero to do with the decisions corporate makes on these matters. The reason they want you to baby the car is so a material defect or problem probably wont show up until warranty expiration and nothing more. If you do some research (not internet hearsay) you will see validation to my claim of the "limited window for rings to properly seat". Politics and misinformation are so rampant all around us with everything we do that it is a diservice to make claims based upon impression or interpetation, and not actual fact and in depth experiance like I am sharing here. Just like those that believe there are no mods to improve a cars performance or longevity. "If the factory did not do it, it should not be done" mentallity would never lead us to releases like the COPO drag cars (look at just how many products are outright aftermarket and have NOTING to do with the GM brass and ivory tower managers only looking at the bottom line. Let the engineers loose and the vehicles would be built so well they would never wear out, but the price would be 100 times what the average buyer could afford. There is always the sacrifices of quality, performance, economy that are the results of corporate directives and decisions. __________________ If the car feels like it is on rails, you are probably driving too slow. -Ross Bentley Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall. Torque is how far you take the wall with you. “If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.” Mario Andretti If you can turn, you ain't going fast enough...

01-02-2016, 04:04 PM	#57
FlightSoftware Drives: '95 Corvette, '06 Mustang, 2LT RS Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Alabama Posts: 428	Love or hate Onstar, it's gotta be awesome to be GM and have tons of telemetry streaming in from millions of cars. They'll be able to match the driving history of a car with its maintenance history and determine empirically what, if any, changes to make to their recommended break in procedure. You'd have to believe they're either evil or stupid to recommend a procedure that doesn't work. And now, they have the data to know for sure if it's working.

01-02-2016, 10:22 PM	#62
mikeyg36 Drives: 2015 Z/28 #533 Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: NY Posts: 6,731	Oh look someone around here knows how to back up their claims. What a concept. Good info SSE, hopefully that answers your question OP.

01-02-2016, 10:56 PM	#67
paul84043 Drives: 2015 Camaro 2SS RS 1LE Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Lehi, Utah Posts: 1,349 View My Garage	The purpose of the break in period is to allow your mating surfaces to polish themselves against each other. Drive it like you stole it from day one and you're going to potentially destroy the temper on your mating surfaces, in particular your cam lobes. Modern machining processes are not good enough to eliminate friction. Period. You car. Break it in how you want.

01-03-2016, 02:59 PM	#69
Nightmare2012 come find out;) Drives: stockish 2012 camaro ss Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: speed county Posts: 2,166 View My Garage	The way I broke in my truck and camaro was short burst of wot mixed with regular driving and some more wot 150k miles on the truck zero issues. The camaro isn't stock but still no issues lol

01-03-2016, 03:30 PM	#70
Bells Drives: 2016 Hyper Blue SS Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: SLC, UT Posts: 65	So the TL;DR on this thread is: drive hard, but change the oil often(500, 1500 miles??)? The old "drive it super gentile" line always sounded more like "we can't legally tell you to drive fast" to me.

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