Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
JUICEDMOTORSPORTS
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Members Area > Ask AL


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-08-2018, 01:28 PM   #1
mlee
www.CamaroFest.org
 
mlee's Avatar
 
Drives: 2018 Silverado
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 32,364
[ANSWERED] Strut tower brace needed or helpful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by TLSTWIN
I see while trying to build a Camaro there is always an option to add a strut tower brace, but I have never seen any of the cars with them on it.

So how's does it fit under the hood, how does it attach, is it really necessary or is it helpful for us that are track rats?
Al's Answer:

The short answer is ‘no, you don’t need the Tower to Tower brace to improve ride, steering, or handling.’

When we designed the 6th Gen Camaro, one of the areas we focused on was going after a significant mass reduction while improving the body structure. The ‘Alpha’ architecture, which was the basis for the Cadillac CTS/ATS, provided this opportunity. Lighter weight materials, like Press-hardened Steel, High Strength-Low Alloy (HSLA), and Aluminum allowed us to have a structure that has 28% more body stiffness than the 5th Gen Camaro, yet weighs between 225 lb. – 390 lb. less than its predecessor (depending on the model). The shock towers, which are made of Aluminum, are 40% lighter than steel, yet 25% stiffer than those in the 5th Gen Camaro.

If you consider the modal analysis of the body structure, the shock towers move from side to side while driving through road input, which can be felt in both the steering wheel and the seat of your pants if the movement is not managed. By providing a stronger structure, especially in the areas where the loads are transferred directly to the customer touch points, we don’t need to add on the additional mass and cost of structural braces, such as the Tower to Tower brace. We did add what we call ‘rearward-facing V-braces’, which are smaller braces tied into the front of dash structure that are very effective, and this helps provide the quick, responsive steering you feel in your Camaro. From the suspension standpoint, the front strut mounts showcase a single path design that optimizes steering response and isolation, also contributing to the conclusion that we don’t need a Tower to Tower brace.

The one exception is the SS Convertible, which does have the brace. The road loads in the SS convertible, in addition to the additional forward mass of the car due to the heavier engine, required the additional structure. The bottom line with regard to the Tower to Tower brace on the other models, especially the 1LE’s, is that while it could most likely be proven by an engineer that there would be some improvement with On-center feel of the steering, the Camaro team felt that this very slight improvement was not worth penalizing the car for the additional mass. I will add that there is no harm in adding the brace to your car. By the way, due to the height of the engine, the brace will not work on the 2.0T or ZL1 Camaro.
__________________
.
mlee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 02:31 PM   #2
90503


 
90503's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS LS3
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Torrance
Posts: 12,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlee View Post
Al's Answer:

The short answer is ‘no, you don’t need the Tower to Tower brace to improve ride, steering, or handling.’ When we designed the 6th Gen Camaro, one of the areas we focused on was going after a significant mass reduction while improving the body structure. The ‘Alpha’ architecture, which was the basis for the Cadillac CTS/ATS, provided this opportunity. Lighter weight materials, like Press-hardened Steel, High Strength-Low Alloy (HSLA), and Aluminum allowed us to have a structure that has 28% more body stiffness than the 5th Gen Camaro, yet weighs between 225 lb. – 390 lb. less than its predecessor (depending on the model). The shock towers, which are made of Aluminum, are 40% lighter than steel, yet 25% stiffer than those in the 5th Gen Camaro. If you consider the modal analysis of the body structure, the shock towers move from side to side while driving through road input, which can be felt in both the steering wheel and the seat of your pants if the movement is not managed. By providing a stronger structure, especially in the areas where the loads are transferred directly to the customer touch points, we don’t need to add on the additional mass and cost of structural braces, such as the Tower to Tower brace. We did add what we call ‘rearward-facing V-braces’, which are smaller braces tied into the front of dash structure that are very effective, and this helps provide the quick, responsive steering you feel in your Camaro. From the suspension standpoint, the front strut mounts showcase a single path design that optimizes steering response and isolation, also contributing to the conclusion that we don’t need a Tower to Tower brace.

The one exception is the SS Convertible, which does have the brace. The road loads in the SS convertible, in addition to the additional forward mass of the car due to the heavier engine, required the additional structure. The bottom line with regard to the Tower to Tower brace on the other models, especially the 1LE’s, is that while it could most likely be proven by an engineer that there would be some improvement with On-center feel of the steering, the Camaro team felt that this very slight improvement was not worth penalizing the car for the additional mass. I will add that there is no harm in adding the brace to your car. By the way, due to the height of the engine, the brace will not work on the 2.0T or ZL1 Camaro.
Hmmm.....needed for convertible SS....won't fit on the ZL1...

....but what about the Convertible ZL1s?
90503 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 03:03 PM   #3
LS6-M22
Rockcrusher
 
LS6-M22's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 SS 1LE
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Spring Hill FL
Posts: 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90503 View Post
Hmmm.....needed for convertible SS....won't fit on the ZL1...

....but what about the Convertible ZL1s?
I suspect we will never get a straight answer for that.
LS6-M22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 03:34 PM   #4
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
 
Norm Peterson's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 10 Legacy 2.5GT, ...
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Posts: 5,376
Seems the other STB thread (where I first tried to post this) is closed.

I'm not too surprised at the answer - or that the Alpha actually has strut tower bracing, and that even though it doesn't jump out at you like a more conventional 2-point design it (they?) can still be very effective structurally.




Norm
__________________
'08 GT coupe 5M, wheels, tires, pads, fluid, a few suspension mods . . . still almost at stock height
'10 LGT 6M (hers) and an '01 Maxima 5M (spare)
Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 05:40 PM   #5
TLSTWIN
Romans10:9-13
 
TLSTWIN's Avatar
 
Drives: /\yes, this is me/\
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Vermilion, Ohio
Posts: 4,219
Interesting,

It explains the rubbing the zl1 has on the hood with the bmr ones.

not gonna be ordering one in my case. If I ever quit buying other vehicles and going on cruises.
__________________
R.I.P. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=373249
Back Street Performance has done a great job with ALL my Performance & Suspension mods, highly recommend them (Rich@BSP) he's in my friends list. https://youtu.be/Lht8sKe1Maw
TLSTWIN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2018, 06:38 AM   #6
vtirocz

 
vtirocz's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS M6
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,435
Thanks, Al!! Excellent detail as usual.

I, too, am interested in why the ZL1 convertible did not get one. Maybe the trade-offs for a common solution that also worked on a ZL1 (impact to hood design and aero) overshadowed the benefit.
__________________
2017 Camaro 1SS, M6, Hyper Blue, NPP, Gray Split Spoke Wheels
vtirocz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2018, 12:19 PM   #7
DrkPhx

 
DrkPhx's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Triple Black ZL1 / 2006 TB SS
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MN
Posts: 2,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtirocz View Post
Thanks, Al!! Excellent detail as usual.

I, too, am interested in why the ZL1 convertible did not get one. Maybe the trade-offs for a common solution that also worked on a ZL1 (impact to hood design and aero) overshadowed the benefit.
He states it won't fit on the ZL1 or 2.0T due to engine height.

Quote:
due to the height of the engine, the brace will not work on the 2.0T or ZL1 Camaro.
DrkPhx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2018, 02:27 PM   #8
GP86
 
GP86's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 2SS
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 302
Very nicely detailed and straight to the point answer. Thanks, Al!
__________________
2017 HBM 2SS A8|F55|NPP|H01|IO6|RIK|WGL|56R
GP86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2018, 03:19 PM   #9
vtirocz

 
vtirocz's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS M6
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,435
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrkPhx View Post
He states it won't fit on the ZL1 or 2.0T due to engine height.
I know that, but why didn't they either redesign the brace or hood for it to fit, since he also mentioned it was deemed necessary on the SS convertible. I'm talking about early in the design phase, why didn't they make 1 brace that accommodates all configurations or design all the hoods to fit around the optimized brace?
__________________
2017 Camaro 1SS, M6, Hyper Blue, NPP, Gray Split Spoke Wheels
vtirocz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2018, 04:35 PM   #10
PolynesianPowerhouse
Big Samoan ina little car
 
PolynesianPowerhouse's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 camaro
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Tofiga Island
Posts: 1,703
So where does this put the 2.0 model, the AutoX edition that was at sema in 2016?

They had a brace specifically made for the 2.0T



TGMPG actually had the part number listed for it as well.
Attached Images
  
__________________
Don't sit around and watch everyone else live YOUR dreams...DO SUMPT'N

When I see posts asking "whats the best intake, exhaust, etc" .... the answer to that is like a grandfather telling his grandkids "if you put salt on a birds tail, it'll let you catch it" #ThinkAboutIt

"Winning Tip: Don't take my (or anyone else's) word for it. GO TEST IT!" - Dennis Grant

Last edited by PolynesianPowerhouse; 01-14-2018 at 03:15 PM.
PolynesianPowerhouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 11:34 PM   #11
WhyUMad1LE

 
Drives: 17 SS 1LE
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,601
I just came here after watching a video by Carlos Lago on the ATSV. At 11m 45sec he said that Cadillac added the underbody aluminum shear panel (which SS-up Camaros have as well) not because it made the lap times quicker, but because it delivered more feedback from the front end to the driver. My first thought was that the strut brace would fall in this category as well.

WhyUMad1LE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2018, 08:38 AM   #12
Soleil

 
Soleil's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro 50th anniversary edition
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,357
I find the explanation from Al quite helpful. If I understand well.
Quote:
1. ....we focused on was going after a significant mass reduction while improving the body structure.
Make sense.
Quote:
2. By providing a stronger structure, especially in the areas where the loads are transferred directly to the customer touch points, we don’t need to add on the additional mass and cost of structural braces, such as the Tower to Tower brace.
The point here is costs.
Quote:
3. We did add what we call ‘rearward-facing V-braces’, which are smaller braces tied into the front of dash structure that are very effective, and this helps provide the quick, responsive steering you feel in your Camaro.
And it is cheaper than the tower brace.
Quote:
...also contributing to the conclusion that we don’t need a Tower to Tower brace.
No need doesn’t mean not beneficial.

Quote:
4......while it could most likely be proven by an engineer that there would be some improvement with On-center feel of the steering, the Camaro team felt that this very slight improvement was not worth penalizing the car for the additional mass. I will add that there is no harm in adding the brace to your car.
I guess a engineer will find a significant improvement but it sounds not good if GM admit it. Yes, Al is right the car don’t need a tower brace but it will not harm. Or better it will improve the performance of the car.
__________________
Soleil
_____________________________________________
A car is fast enough, if you fear to unlock it in the morning." (Walter Roehrl)
Soleil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2018, 09:10 AM   #13
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
 
Norm Peterson's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 10 Legacy 2.5GT, ...
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Eastern Time Zone
Posts: 5,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soleil View Post
I find the explanation from Al quite helpful. If I understand well.

Make sense.

The point here is costs.

And it is cheaper than the tower brace.
No need doesn’t mean not beneficial.

I guess a engineer will find a significant improvement but it sounds not good if GM admit it. Yes, Al is right the car don’t need a tower brace but it will not harm. Or better it will improve the performance of the car.
That reads to me like "we're already inside the realm of diminishing returns".

Not that there would have been zero benefit by installing one, just that for the vast majority of customers the amount of benefit (if they noticed any at all - which cannot at all be guaranteed) was judged too small to warrant Chevy putting one in there except in the one convertible application.

For the ZL1 convertible, I'm going to guess that the added expense of redesigning and recertifying for a different hood was enough to tip the balance against fitting one there.


Norm
__________________
'08 GT coupe 5M, wheels, tires, pads, fluid, a few suspension mods . . . still almost at stock height
'10 LGT 6M (hers) and an '01 Maxima 5M (spare)
Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 09:23 PM   #14
BradfordCamaro
SABIO
 
BradfordCamaro's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 CAMARO 1SS
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Bradford, ON
Posts: 4,364
Of course a Brace is offered by GM. Why would they let someone else sell you one.
People like them even if they don't do anything. Looks cool.

and it's another place to get Al O. to sign at the next big car meet.
__________________
MRR FS01|C A I|PRAY PERFORMANCE|KOOKS|BTR CAM



BradfordCamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.