Lifter/Cam failure advice

[Russell James]

There are plenty of details to look at to avoid repeat cam disasters. One is avoiding the mass producer of shelf cams and supplier to many private labels. Spend a hair more and get a custom cam ground on a much better core, like a Callies core 8620. Pick a cam grinder like Cam Motion, Bullet, Brian Tooley, TSP... where they really pay attention to things like avoiding grinder burn. The perfectly heat treated cam core can easily be ruined by spitting them out on assembly line style cranking that processing speed up.

Buy from someone that does spintron and cam doctor testing.

Lobe design. Some like to advertise max hp gains, and get that max by using very fast aggressive ramps. The more aggressive lobe then requires more aggressive valve springs... and you a stacking negatives up against valvetrain stability. Look at LS endurance racing engines... the cams have lobes designed for valvetrain stability and use a PSI max life beehive spring. And they have incredible durability. They are not slamming the valves down and bouncing with huge spring pressure. When you see racing groups that have spent millions R&Ding combos that work, take advantage of their spend... ei Johnson lifters, PSI max life springs... Instead of the internet winner cam that boasts the best peak dyno numbers. Slamming valves open and closed very fast makes great power, destroys parts.

Block checked by someone that knows their stuff. Like measuring lifter bores for out of round, taper, lifter clearance... Perfecting lifter to lifter bore clearance in an OE LS block is critical. The OE block is not priority main oiling... so, by feeding the lifter galley first... if those lifter to lifter bore clearances are jacked/leaking like a sieve... you mains and rods oiling is jacked.

All kinds of other build tips... PR length, rocker arm geometry, sweep pattern, spring set up/clearance to bind...many more

Buy the best parts, from very knowledgeable sources, assembled to perfection, you'll have the best chances. Mass produced parts thrown in a mystery block, may or may not work so great.

[racesloth]

Caught my failure before it was bad - by luck, I was installing new heads and cam and supporting components. My issue was insufficient surface hardening by Comp Cams at roughly 25K miles of use.

[KW Baraka]

Originally Posted by InFiD3ViL

As long as the block, cylinders, and lifter bores are structurally sound it should be ok to rebuild, lots of metal or not. It will be completely disassembled, inspected, and cleaned anyway. Any competent builder will make sure all passages are clear and clean of debris...……...

Agreed!

KW

[Inferno_Orange_]

I'd like to know what kind of lifters he had that failed at 40k? LS3/LS7 lifters I assume?

I believe so, it was everything that came with the ss1 vvt cam package.

I believe many of these cam job horror stories are due to improper installation. Not measuring pushrod length. Not checking the cam bearings prior to installing a new cam. Hell, I had a split cam bearing before I did my cam. Next would be the install method. Either the correct way or the shortcut way. The correct way is removing the heads and what not. The short cut way is using dowel rods and hoping you don't spin a lifter or what not.

Everything was done in house at Gwatney and the setup did manage to last 3 years and 40,000 miles before it went. I'd say maybe around 1/4 of those were aggressive driving miles.

Just out of curiosity, do all you guys race / track your cars to break all these engines? Or does all this carnage happen driving to church? I had a customer of mine who builds motors say to me the other day, "You're never going to hurt that LS motor." I wonder if he's ever looked here? Seems a LOT of people hurt LS motors.

I've had it at a drag strip twice, first time was a month after the install in 2017, and the other time was in November last year. I've never broken anything while there, but I did bend my trailing arms pretty good at some point.

I'm probably gonna end up just getting the new cam/lifters since it will be so much cheaper than any other option. After that I might look around for a used 6th gen 1le. Probably won't actually happen though, as I'm just too attached to my car and I'm not a huge fan of the way the 6th gen looks other than the zl1, and that would be pushing my college budget to the limit and then some.

[Russell James]

I see now in their private label cams there is a box to check for $50 hardened 8620 cam core. That'd be $50 well spent.

[PhantomBlack]

Originally Posted by Inferno_Orange_

I believe so, it was everything that came with the ss1 vvt cam package.

Just curious what was your redline set to?

[InFiD3ViL]

Originally Posted by Russell James

I see now in their private label cams there is a box to check for $50 hardened 8620 cam core. That'd be $50 well spent.

Yup, just got mine and installed it yesterday (GPI SS1 8620 core). It was shipped directly from Cam Motion. I figured for only $50 more, why not? Took a few days longer but no big deal for a little peace of mind. I like the copper color between the lobes lol. They also sent me titanium retainers but I paid for steel retainers. Not sure if it was an order filling mistake or if intended, but I am not arguing.

[hammdo]

Originally Posted by Inferno_Orange_

So the other day when I started my car it was making a tapping sound with the rpm that I didn't notice till I drove it about an 8th of a mile. I immediately turned around and parked it and checked the oil. Had a few sparkles so trailered it to be checked out.

Turns out a lifter failed and took the cam lobe out with it, and it's gonna be around $2500 for a rebuild. At this point i'm wondering if I should look into another block, as spending that much on a motor that's had metal going through it seems kinda iffy. I really liked the setup I had, which was the GPI vvt ss1 package, as a good daily but I had a valve spring break last year with 30,000 cammed miles and now this at 40,000. I'm trying to decide what route to go, whether to rebuild it with the same setup, a different setup, or even a different block. I am in college though, so my budget isn't very big. Also if anyone is curious, I've been running Joe Gibbs driven ls30 oil since the valve spring broke a year ago. Any input appreciated

I had the same cam but, I followed GPIs advice and replace the valve springs @ 20k miles. I’m pretty sure they would note that as I did my cam in 2014 on my L99. My new LSA has 13.5k on it and I’ll do the same - replace the springs at 20k miles as they recommend. From what I can remember, weak springs can cause havoc on a custom cam and lifters...

JG LS30 on the L99, JG DT40 on the LSA. Broke in both cams/engine with JG BR30.


-Don

[eLeSthree]

Originally Posted by Russell James

There are plenty of details to look at to avoid repeat cam disasters. One is avoiding the mass producer of shelf cams and supplier to many private labels. Spend a hair more and get a custom cam ground on a much better core, like a Callies core 8620. Pick a cam grinder like Cam Motion, Bullet, Brian Tooley, TSP... where they really pay attention to things like avoiding grinder burn. The perfectly heat treated cam core can easily be ruined by spitting them out on assembly line style cranking that processing speed up.

Buy from someone that does spintron and cam doctor testing.

Lobe design. Some like to advertise max hp gains, and get that max by using very fast aggressive ramps. The more aggressive lobe then requires more aggressive valve springs... and you a stacking negatives up against valvetrain stability. Look at LS endurance racing engines... the cams have lobes designed for valvetrain stability and use a PSI max life beehive spring. And they have incredible durability. They are not slamming the valves down and bouncing with huge spring pressure. When you see racing groups that have spent millions R&Ding combos that work, take advantage of their spend... ei Johnson lifters, PSI max life springs... Instead of the internet winner cam that boasts the best peak dyno numbers. Slamming valves open and closed very fast makes great power, destroys parts.

Block checked by someone that knows their stuff. Like measuring lifter bores for out of round, taper, lifter clearance... Perfecting lifter to lifter bore clearance in an OE LS block is critical. The OE block is not priority main oiling... so, by feeding the lifter galley first... if those lifter to lifter bore clearances are jacked/leaking like a sieve... you mains and rods oiling is jacked.

All kinds of other build tips... PR length, rocker arm geometry, sweep pattern, spring set up/clearance to bind...many more

Buy the best parts, from very knowledgeable sources, assembled to perfection, you'll have the best chances. Mass produced parts thrown in a mystery block, may or may not work so great.

Everyone always uses heavy dual springs and high lift cams to make big power.

I run a weee little .525/.525 lift cam that only needs a light little beehive spring. Happy valve seats

[SuperChuck]

Unfortunately this just hit me today. Same set up SS1 VVT GPI installed and dyno tuned. Only lasted me 5k miles 9 months. With it just happening today so not sure what the future holds. Don't have anyone trust worthy looking at it until end of May. Guess it is plenty of time to save. Overtime here we come.

[PhantomBlack]

Originally Posted by SuperChuck

Unfortunately this just hit me today. Same set up SS1 VVT GPI installed and dyno tuned. Only lasted me 5k miles 9 months. With it just happening today so not sure what the future holds. Don't have anyone trust worthy looking at it until end of May. Guess it is plenty of time to save. Overtime here we come.

Only 5k miles? Damn I'm sorry to hear that... got me worried about my setup now... Please report back once you find out what the issue was.

I also asked the OP, but he hasn't responded so I'll ask you as well. How high was your redline set to?

[PhantomBlack]

Originally Posted by hammdo

I had the same cam but, I followed GPIs advice and replace the valve springs @ 20k miles. I’m pretty sure they would note that as I did my cam in 2014 on my L99. My new LSA has 13.5k on it and I’ll do the same - replace the springs at 20k miles as they recommend. From what I can remember, weak springs can cause havoc on a custom cam and lifters...

JG LS30 on the L99, JG DT40 on the LSA. Broke in both cams/engine with JG BR30.


-Don

I thought it was 25k miles guess I'll be changing them early, thanks.

[SuperChuck]

Originally Posted by PhantomBlack

Only 5k miles? Damn I'm sorry to hear that... got me worried about my setup now... Please report back once you find out what the issue was.

I also asked the OP, but he hasn't responded so I'll ask you as well. How high was your redline set to?

Yea I think my response is the same as his. I just got the SS1 VVT and dyno package. I'm not sure what it was set at. But I know I wasn't hard on mine at all. Had it up to 120 a couple times. But never at the track. Never paddle shifted. No clue. ....

[Coops]

I was about to have l99 gpi stage 1 done to my 2010, Now I'm worried this might happen, please post any updates, srry this happen,
Thks
Coop