MERGED: Has anyone read this (bankruptcy) about GM?

[rico-2SS]

Originally Posted by Foster26

Remember: Chapter 11 Bankruptcy does NOT mean they will cease to exists.

I think a Major company did this some 8-9 years ago "K-MART" didn't they Fill Chapter 11????? - I am pretty sure. But anyway GM will regroup, restructure and the economy will start climbing again

But anyway Hell yes I would still buy.

[The_Blur]

Allow me to identify my priorities.
1 Help as many otherwise screwed Americans as possible. By keeping GM afloat, millions of Americans keep their jobs.
2 Protect American businesses. The US needs that money to pay for government programs and policies, including the military and federal expenses.
3 Be fair to the market as a whole. As someone who supports American hegemony in the international system, I believe that the US should protect some of its businesses before allowing companies that make less than genius market decisions to fail. In a purely capitalist system, GM should fail for not following the market and making too many SUVs, but that would terminate the employment of millions of Americans and kill enormous amounts of tax revenue. I care less about the world market than I care about American jobs (see 1) and American businesses (see 2). If I were Italian, I'd say that I want to protect Italian jobs and Italian businesses as a priority over the world.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by trm0002

The market not taking a dump would have just prolonged the inevitable.

Not necessarily...2004, 05, and 07 was spend introducing brand new, GREAT models that people would acutally want to buy; the rewards of which would be reaped in the next few years.
Also, in 2007, they signed a contract deal eliminating the worker's healthcare burden they had...according to their plan, profitability would return the minute that deal kicked in in 2010. (It still might, providing they make it to 2010.)

The market took their 'plans' and did this:

[LS9CamaroSS]

i would buy one if i had the cash... we aren't talking about people who NEED the car valuing it high it is car COLLECTORS with MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of dollars buying a 3-4k production car that want it for their collection imagine if only a few hundred of the SS is produced and sold. the Car collectors at Barrett-Jackson would be going crazy because they know 20-30 years from now they will be hard to find so they'll pay big bucks for them.

[rico-2SS]

Originally Posted by babyjulie83

this all makes me want to cry......

I just want to wake up tomorrow morning and for everyone's troubles to be gone......

:(

I just want to wake up and find my camaro in my driveway...

Off topic but it has to do with people not buying...cars or anything.......our economy........"Mark my words" if gas prices stay lower......You will see more spending and the economy starts to grow once again....maybe not 1-3 months but slowly it will...........money does not disappear people........it moves around....oil companies = Gazillion dollar profits for some time now.....

Example - with gas down my fuel bill last month was $500 less than the previouse month....I have a longer drive to and from work..............now that gas is down....I am a creature of habit and have a spending limit. I will spend that $500 somewhere else....GM maybe, Walley World????

We need to lobby our representatives to get bills passed and back in place that put restrictions on trades such as oil to protect us......we know we need gas, but don't take advantage of it.....Funny how fast gas rises in cost with the cost of a barrel but how slow it is coming down. IMO our econimic issues around the world are related to OIL and the fat keep getting fatter. No other Product has world wide coverage or dependencey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Other than Air and water in some places. Thank you who ever made those FREE.

Did I say I would Still buy from GM if they go chapter 11...hell yes I will .........I am loyal and I will try to do my part to help them. I will drive the wheels off my American made car and fix it till it could be fixed again before jumping ship. I am hoping to buy my first HYbrid from GM in a July of 2010.

Ok like anyone cares..........CAMARO LOVERS CARE!!!!!!!!! Don't sell out ...ever

[MrIcky]

"1 Help as many otherwise screwed Americans as possible. By keeping GM afloat, millions of Americans keep their jobs."

OK, I'm with you here- but my philosophy is more along the teach a man to fish vs the fish for a day concept. Earmark the money to modernize into flex plants, coerce dropping non-productive plants. Defer new CAFE standards but tie the development to more future proof engines.

"2 Protect American businesses. The US needs that money to pay for government programs and policies, including the military and federal expenses."

Pelosi is exploring the idea of basically printing money to prop up GM as status quo. So you are then stating we need that to continue tax revenue. Well why not just give the Big 3 a 2 year tax deferment? By printing money we devalue the dollar decreasing your buying power (inflation?). At least in 79 they had a clear law. If they do this like TARP then there is minimal oversite and the plan can be changed on a whim. Honestly, if TARP doesn't prove to you why we need very clear legislation and restructuring with any aid to GM, then I'm at a loss.

"3 Be fair to the market as a whole. As someone who supports American hegemony in the international system, I believe that the US should protect some of its businesses before allowing companies that make less than genius market decisions to fail. In a purely capitalist system, GM should fail for not following the market and making too many SUVs, but that would terminate the employment of millions of Americans and kill enormous amounts of tax revenue. I care less about the world market than I care about American jobs (see 1) and American businesses (see 2). If I were Italian, I'd say that I want to protect Italian jobs and Italian businesses as a priority over the world. "

American Hegemony maintained through government protectionism and Fair to the market as a whole are mutually exclusive by definition.

That being said, I'm not against supporting Ford and GM. I want Ford and GM to have plans on how they will be competitive again in 2-5 years and I want any money to be tied to specific performance of plan items. I do not have faith that Wagoner will use the money wisely. Don't tell me he'll use it wisely, give me a plan that shows how.

I want to make one very big point, so forgive me for yelling: WE'VE SEEN THIS COMING SINCE THE EARLY 80s!!!!! But even seeing that this was coming, GM has been notoriously labeled as one of the most risk-adverse companies to ever exist. Saying that Wagoner et al. don't want to lose their job is not the same as saying they know how to keep it.

[Foster26]

Originally Posted by rico-2SS

I just want to wake up and find my camaro in my driveway...

Off topic but it has to do with people not buying...cars or anything.......our economy........"Mark my words" if gas prices stay lower......You will see more spending and the economy starts to grow once again....maybe not 1-3 months but slowly it will...........money does not disappear people........it moves around....oil companies = Gazillion dollar profits for some time now.....

Example - with gas down my fuel bill last month was $500 less than the previouse month....I have a longer drive to and from work..............now that gas is down....I am a creature of habit and have a spending limit. I will spend that $500 somewhere else....GM maybe, Walley World????

We need to lobby our representatives to get bills passed and back in place that put restrictions on trades such as oil to protect us......we know we need gas, but don't take advantage of it.....Funny how fast gas rises in cost with the cost of a barrel but how slow it is coming down. IMO our econimic issues around the world are related to OIL and the fat keep getting fatter. No other Product has world wide coverage or dependencey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Other than Air and water in some places. Thank you who ever made those FREE.

Did I say I would Still buy from GM if they go chapter 11...hell yes I will .........I am loyal and I will try to do my part to help them. I will drive the wheels off my American made car and fix it till it could be fixed again before jumping ship. I am hoping to buy my first HYbrid from GM in a July of 2010.

Ok like anyone cares..........CAMARO LOVERS CARE!!!!!!!!! Don't sell out ...ever

AMEN

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by MrIcky

1 Help as many otherwise screwed Americans as possible. By keeping GM afloat, millions of Americans keep their jobs.

OK, I'm with you here- but my philosophy is more along the teach a man to fish vs the fish for a day concept. Earmark the money to modernize into flex plants, coerce dropping non-productive plants. Defer new CAFE standards but tie the development to more future proof engines.

2 Protect American businesses. The US needs that money to pay for government programs and policies, including the military and federal expenses.

Pelosi is exploring the idea of basically printing money to prop up GM as status quo. So you are then stating we need that to continue tax revenue. Well why not just give the Big 3 a 2 year tax deferment? By printing money we devalue the dollar decreasing your buying power (inflation?). At least in 79 they had a clear law. If they do this like TARP then there is minimal oversite and the plan can be changed on a whim. Honestly, if TARP doesn't prove to you why we need very clear legislation and restructuring with any aid to GM, then I'm at a loss.

3 Be fair to the market as a whole. As someone who supports American hegemony in the international system, I believe that the US should protect some of its businesses before allowing companies that make less than genius market decisions to fail. In a purely capitalist system, GM should fail for not following the market and making too many SUVs, but that would terminate the employment of millions of Americans and kill enormous amounts of tax revenue. I care less about the world market than I care about American jobs (see 1) and American businesses (see 2). If I were Italian, I'd say that I want to protect Italian jobs and Italian businesses as a priority over the world.

American Hegemony maintained through government protectionism and Fair to the market as a whole are mutually exclusive by definition.

That being said, I'm not against supporting Ford and GM. I want Ford and GM to have plans on how they will be competitive again in 2-5 years and I want any money to be tied to specific performance of plan items. I do not have faith that Wagoner will use the money wisely. Don't tell me he'll use it wisely, give me a plan that shows how.

I want to make one very big point, so forgive me for yelling: WE'VE SEEN THIS COMING SINCE THE EARLY 80s!!!!! But even seeing that this was coming, GM has been notoriously labeled as one of the most risk-adverse companies to ever exist. Saying that Wagoner et al. don't want to lose their job is not the same as saying they know how to keep it.

We could teach GM to fish if only our public officials knew how to run a business. You know as well as I do that elected officials are basically Americans who win popularity contests—I mean elections—based on political affiliation, name recognition, and a little bit of policy. They don't know how to run a big company, so we can only hope that professionals who have done this all their lives can do a better job.

I like your idea of a tax deferment. That could make an enormous difference. I don't like the idea of printing money. That's part of what got the Weimar Republic in trouble after WWI. It creates enormous amounts of inflation.

I strongly believe that we need to support large American companies that dominate the market if the US intends to stay a dominant economic power. GM is one of the largest. If another enormous car company pops up and a market crisis hits the world, I'll support protecting that company in the face of a depression.

I understand your frustration with the GM of the 1980s. I feel that period of time is a large black streak on GM history. Fortunately, the same executives that "don't know how to keep" their jobs are the ones that designed critically acclaimed cars like the Malibu. They know what they're doing. This market crisis prevented that from shining through. If this crisis happened in 2011, then we would have seen the successful profit from this year, next year, and the year after that; GM taking back the number 1 spot from Toyota under positive market conditions; successful product releases, including the Volt, Cruze, and Camaro; cost reduction in 2010; working within EPA and CAFE regulations. GM is doing its job. For us to accept government involvement in industry at all, we would be hypocrites to reject government loans to companies that keep America running. I guarantee you that GM can get through this with great success if we just help a little bit. We'd be doing a whole lot less than the rest of the world, if that makes anyone feel better.

[Black5thgen]

Another reason we need to keep GM afloat is that in order to boost our economy we need to lower our dependance on foriegn made goods. The main contibution we can make to the economy is to get the dollar flowing and staying in the domestic market. We need manufacturing to get back into the US and loosing 2.5 million manufacturing jobs will really send us up the creek. American's need to buy American and we need to get back the sense of American pride. The idea that American made products are built better and may cost a little more need to be brought back.

If GM is bought by a foriegn company I will NOT buy a Camaro.

[SScattergunSS]

Well, if Nero was playing his fiddle in 64 A.D. as Rome burned, I might as well be driving my new Camaro in 2009 A.D., with my dog right next to me!!!

GM is going to survive! It's goning to be tough, but they'll do it. And at some point after the dust clears be looking to buy their stock. It'll be dirt cheap with only one direction to go.

Good luck, General....

[MCPOAJ]

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

Another reason we need to keep GM afloat is that in order to boost our economy we need to lower our dependance on foriegn made goods. The main contibution we can make to the economy is to get the dollar flowing and staying in the domestic market. We need manufacturing to get back into the US and loosing 2.5 million manufacturing jobs will really send us up the creek. American's need to buy American and we need to get back the sense of American pride. The idea that American made products are built better and may cost a little more need to be brought back.

If GM is bought by a foriegn company I will NOT buy a Camaro.

FINALLY thankyou you said it PRIDE. You're are 100% right we need to bring jobs back to America

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by MCPOAJ

FINALLY thankyou you said it PRIDE. You're are 100% right we need to bring jobs back to America

The camaro plant is in Canada.. If GM can't afford to have the Camaro plant in America, what makes you think it will after a bailout? Labor in other countries is getting cheaper every year and unless the government forces them to pay higher salaries and keep extra-ordinary retirement benefits in place, GM will move all of their plants outside America eventually. Bankruptcy could be what saves GM in this case as they would be able to re-organize and not have a huge overhead in terms of paying retirement benefits they can't afford anyways without Gov. help and car warranties... Furthermore GM will have trouble meeting standards that keep getting stricter and will if the Government performs a bailout with even stricter CAFE standards than those today. Granted I do think if the company does file for bankruptcy, that the US government should keep paying those retirees affected and help those who lose their jobs to find others. However if the Government simply injects more money into GM, how much longer till we are faced with the same situation today, only worse?

[MCPOAJ]

Originally Posted by Supermans

The camaro plant is in Canada.. If GM can't afford to have the Camaro plant in America, what makes you think it will after a bailout? Labor in other countries is getting cheaper every year and unless the government forces them to pay higher salaries and keep extra-ordinary retirement benefits in place, GM will move all of their plants outside America eventually. Bankruptcy could be what saves GM in this case as they would be able to re-organize and not have a huge overhead in terms of paying retirement benefits they can't afford anyways without Gov. help. Furthermore GM will have trouble meeting standards that keep getting stricter and will if the Government performs a bailout with even stricter CAFE standards than those today. Granted I do think if the company does file for bankruptcy, that the US government should keep paying those retirees affected and help those who lose their jobs to find others. However if the Government simply injects more money into GM, how much longer till we are faced with the same situation today, only worse?

i know because the camaro is the only car manufactured by gm right i mean i would love to see all of those people lose their jobs and America falling flat on their face...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Supermans

Labor in other countries is getting cheaper every year...

Not exactly. As labor gets moved to other countries, money is influxed to their economy...growing it...and subsequently, improving the standard of living of those peoples (increasing pay)...at the expense of ourselves, though.

Labor can't get cheaper...it can only get more expensive.
But you CAN move more of your operations to cheaper areas...