Why do you think the Z28 is the higher tier?

[radz28]

Good call, and thanks

[radz28]

Originally Posted by PieNsky

M20 was wide ratio, M21 was close ratio and the M22 was a HD close ratio with a high 1st gear that you had to have at least a 4:11 rear to get it.

The 454 came out in 1970 and wasn't in a 1st Gen.

The SS was either a 350 or a 396. The 327 was never a SS in a 1st Gen.

Oopsy. I think I was thinking of a Yenko or Baldwin Motion car. Thanks for clearing that up

[PieNsky]

LOL!
I am always looking for posts where someone is quoting me to clear up something that I posted. And they are always correct.

[nascarnate326]

Z/28 (not z28) was a factory race car for the streets. SS is a a car with nice rims, nice interior, ect.

[PieNsky]

You may want to look at that 396/375 avaiable on the SS.

[Vega]

Well where to begin, lol...
(based on 69' model) The Z/28 was a more stripped down car for weight savings, the SS offered a 396 with 375hp while the Z/28 offered a 302 that GM rated at 290hp but its now known that those were false ratings and it really put out around 450hp give or take for options, the Z/28 was always a much rarer option built with the sole purpose of entering the Camaro into the Trans Am racing series, the Z/28 option was more expensive and included many more manditory performance upgrades including standard front poweer disc brakes, im sure the list goes on but this is about the extent of my knowledge, lol

My main reason for saying the Z/28 should be superior to the SS though is simple. The SS trim is standard for any higher teir Chevrolet model, the Z/28 however is a Camaro specific super-performance trim (at least in first gen cars, Z/28 is the real super-performance car Z28 is a cheap trademark name, really only the first gen cars ever truely represented the Z/28 as it was meant to be, Z28 is misleading especially in late 2nd gen and all 4th gen models)

Look at it this way, the Z/28 is like the Z/06 of Camaros, if Corvette offered an SS package should it out-perform, or be a higher trim level, over the Z/06?
At least I hope thats a good explanation, lol

[PieNsky]

I don't know what the real world numbers are for a 302. I thought it had the 30/30 cam and 202 heads, 11:1 compression. Of course the 327 had an increased .25 stroke. None of the 327s made HP near or around 450 with the same cam,heads, and compression, even the FI.

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by PieNsky

I don't know what the real world numbers are for a 302. I thought it had the 30/30 cam and 202 heads, 11:1 compression. Of course the 327 had an increased .25 stroke. None of the 327s made HP near or around 450 with the same cam,heads, and compression, even the FI.

Depends on which build of the 302 you look at. I think we can all agree that the 290hp rating was not accurate, if you look at the performance (ETs and trap speed) the 302 in production line tune was often on par with the 396/375hp performance. Dyno charts from that time period have shown some builds (not totally stock) with the Traco Engineering heads in Chevy's in house tests of their 302 development engines gave figures of 442hp @ 7,400rpm with a single 800 cfm Holley four barrel, 468hp @ 7,400 RPM with the cross ram dual 600cfm Holley four barrels, and 470hp @ 7,400 rpm with a Kinsler 8 tube fuel injection (a fuel injected version never went into production), these tests were dated 8/2/67. I think it would be safe to say that a production 302 was around 375hp.
Clyde

[PieNsky]

Wasn't the cross ram rated at 390?
The only difference in a 327 and a 302 is a .25 stroke. The 302 had the same stroke as a 283, 3 inch. The 327 has a 3.25 stroke and the 350 has a 3.48 stroke. The 302,327, and 350 all have the same 4 inch bore. Now someone could google all of this as it has been decades. All things being equal between these engines, which one would have the most tq and hp?

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by PieNsky

Wasn't the cross ram rated at 390?
The only difference in a 327 and a 302 is a .25 stroke. The 302 had the same stroke as a 283, 3 inch. The 327 has a 3.25 stroke and the 350 has a 3.48 stroke. The 302,327, and 350 all have the same 4 inch bore. Now someone could google all of this as it has been decades. All things being equal between these engines, which one would have the most tq and hp?

If they were built EXACTLY the same with the only difference being the stroke, there would still be differences in the characteristics of each engine due to the difference in stroke. The 302 with the shortest stroke of the three would be more amenable to high rpms, the 350 with the longest stroke would be the least amenable to high rpms. The 350 should produce the most torque, followed by the 327 and then the 302. The only factory rating I've ever seen for the cross ram was 25 hp over the single four barrel, so that would net you a factory rating of 315 hp for the cross ram. And out of all the first gen. Camaros I've ever looked at (and I started looking at them in 1967) I've never seen one with the cross ram option on it, I think very few ever made it to the street. It would be extremely interesting (at least in my opinion) to see a modern day LS? engine built with short stroke and high rev capability.
Clyde

[SSCamaroZ28]

As said, the Z28 is the Camaro-specific top model and is our true overall special performance car. The 4th Gen wrongly named the SLP car SS. They should have made the base V8 an SS and given the SLP car the Z28 name. It was revisionist and incorrect to do after all the years Z28 was at the top and SS was gone. Also, ZL1 was not a regular production car OR a model, people just call it that for the engine. It is truly supposed to be called a COPO Camaro, an "off the menu" option. SS is good for top regular cars, special vehicles like Camaros and Corvettes get Z designations for their destroyers. The Camaro is also the real original "Z" car.

[PieNsky]

The 302 with the 30/30 cam would still be limited to that rpm range. The ability to rev higher would not help it make additional hp.
The cross-ram was dealer installed.
Would like to see dyno numbers.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by nascarnate326

Z/28 (not z28) was a factory race car for the streets. SS is a a car with nice rims, nice interior, ect.

You might want to read up a little bit.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by SSCamaroZ28

As said, the Z28 is the Camaro-specific top model and is our true overall special performance car. The 4th Gen wrongly named the SLP car SS. They should have made the base V8 an SS and given the SLP car the Z28 name. It was revisionist and incorrect to do after all the years Z28 was at the top and it was gone. Also, ZL1 was not a regular production car OR a model, people just call it that for the engine. It is truly supposed to be called a COPO Camaro, an "off the menu" option. SS is good for top regular cars, special vehicles like Camaros and Corvettes get Z designations for their destroyers. The Camaro is also the real original "Z" car.

For the Camaro.
The Z/06 Corvette was designed in 1963 (I believe).

In the past when an SS Camaro was available it was always Top Dog HP wise (1/4 miler).
Z/28 was a track car, hence the top end performance. It was not great at launching.

In th Vette the Grand Sport was the top dog (a race only Vette), but now it is the ZR1.