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Old 12-03-2016, 10:30 AM   #1
BowTieBoy14
 
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Tracking and questions around breaking, down force, tires, etc.

So to start off I will say my 1LE is mostly a daily driver except it has never and will never see snowy more importantly salty roads. I got to a couple HPDE this year and caught the bug. I fully realize I have only been to 2 and they car still has way more potential than I am using however one thing I was having some issues with was high speed breaking zones. (130s down to 50s). Both times the instructors were commenting how ABS was picking up at a very quickly and at high speeds. Also the breaking was good but not great for me, this last event it did not feel like it wanted to stop as quickly. Just less bite.

So two things, as for the abs. Maybe my threshold breaking game is weak but I was having a hard time threshold breaking and slowing it diwn in time. My thoughts are maybe a larger front splitter? Would they be of benefit in this case? The other thing may be my tires. I switched to the GeForce Comp 2s because I daily drive it and the supercars and just scary in the rain and sub 40 temps. I love the tire but could it's lower stickiness be the cause? I plan to get another sticky set for track duty in the future.

Second thing is breaking, and I know this has been discussed a million times so I will try to keep my question pointed and not so vague. I plan for a upgrade to CTSV or Zl1 sometime in the future if I continue to really enjoy the track days but they arnt in the budget as if now. The car has 30K on it and the factory pads are starting to show decent wear. So I was looking at a more track oriented pad that's cheaper in the interim. I was considering something like the Hawk HP Plus but have no way of knowing if they wikm actually affords more bite than the 1LE compound on it. Any other suggestions in that range are appreciated. I am ok to swap before and after events if needed.But if I could street the pad without suffering as well that would be great too because my free time isnt always what I would like... But who's is? haha. I plan to swap out lines and do some DIY duct work this winter as well. And headers w/ high flows that I have been saving for cuz Murica.

Sorry for the brain dump, hope someone can help make heads or tails of my situation.

Michael
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Old 12-03-2016, 11:22 AM   #2
Norm Peterson
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Learn to 'squeeze into' the brakes. That doesn't mean you have to be slow about it, but you do have to take the 'stomp' out of your technique. Think in terms of a fast ramp up of pedal force than a sudden jerky step all the way from zero to more-than-you-need.

You've probably overheated the OE pads.

For track days, there are much better choices than HP+. Carbotech's XP8 and XP10 have initial bite that's at least as good, while being much gentler on your rotors. Essentially the same compounds are available through G-loc as R8 and R10. CT's and G-loc's are sort of daily driveable depending on your personal tolerance for dust and occasional noise, but retain acceptable bite at temperatures at least down into the low 20°'s F. I'm in South Jersey, I think the current pad combination on my car is XP12/XP10, and I ran it all last winter without brake performance issues.

Cool temperatures could have affected your track experience, if you were braking hard before the tires had themselves come up to temperature. What may take only the out lap to achieve in warmer weather may take two or three laps at gradually increasing intensity at 40°F ambient/track temperature. If the tires are cold enough, you might even notice that the ABS is a little lazy about letting the tires that tried to lock get fully back up to rolling again.


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Old 12-03-2016, 11:48 AM   #3
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If you were tracking 30K mile pads pads and fluid, I'd start by not doing that anymore. Did you at least bleed the brakes before your track day? That's a must...every time.

I just got my 1LE this fall, so haven't tracked it yet. I will next year, and will start with pads and fluid and go from there.

I tracked my Focus ST a bunch, and the HP Plus were junk on that car....didn't even last 1 weekend. I switched to DTC 60's and Wilwood 600 fluid and it was night and day.

Before your next track day, change your fluid and properly bed in a good set of pads. I know that's all I'll be doing before my first time out.
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Old 12-03-2016, 03:03 PM   #4
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Thanks Norm, now that I am getting more comfortable at the track I will pay closer attention to how I am getting on and off the brakes. I will focus on more of a fast squeeze than a 0 to floor motion that I am probably unknowingly doing.

The general consensus sounds like the HP+ aren't exactly what I am looking for. I appreciate the help. I will look closer at the XP10/12s or possibly DTC lineup as Elihu suggested.

Elihu Smails, yes, I did track pads with 25k and 28K on them. As for the fluid it was new, but most likely Dot3. My first track day came up in haste as I got one week notice after making it off the wait list. At the time I was in an apartment with no time or place to do a flush myself to I took it to dealer and I imagine they used standard DOT 3. (I didn't know any better to ask for 4 at the time) I will be replacing with the Motul 600 dt4 fluid when I change the pads and brake lines.

Also sounds like I don't need to worry about the larger front splitter? I mean if I get function out of it great, but I'm trying to keep the doe towards handling / performance now, sex appeal can be added to later.

Thanks Guys
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Old 12-03-2016, 05:16 PM   #5
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Plenty of time for a splitter, which in general should be paired with some rear aero as well (more high speed front grip from aero with about the same amount of high speed rear aero can make the car aerodynamically "loose" at higher speeds. Not what you want.


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Old 12-03-2016, 06:04 PM   #6
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It's essential to change your brake fluid with a racing fluid like Motul RBF600 each year if you are going to track your car, especially if it's a daily driver. Brake fluids absorb moisture and old fluid will boil under track conditions.

Secondly, you can consider buying a true track pad and swap them in/out at the track. It's really easy to do on our cars, less than 30 minutes when you get the hang of it. If you try to run an aggressive track pad on the street, they will eat your rotors. Trust me, I've had first hand experience.
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Old 12-04-2016, 09:42 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalnch View Post
If you try to run an aggressive track pad on the street, they will eat your rotors.
Some pads are much better in this respect, Carbotechs/G-locs at least up to XP12/R12 that I know of. Hawks in HP+ are terrible, especially given their blessing for "occasional street driving".


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Last edited by Norm Peterson; 12-05-2016 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:01 AM   #8
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I can't imagine the comp 2 would do very well at the track compared to the g2...
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Old 12-05-2016, 03:36 PM   #9
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In order to really bring your braking distance down to the full brake system potential you'll need better tires. This is the real compromise... You'll need to decide what benefit is most important to you. Long tire life, grip in dry conditions, grip in wet conditions, there is a sweet spot there for you somewhere.

Bleed the fluid before every event. Changing the lines is not necessary but could provide a little more feedback and confidence.

Proper track pads will give you good feedback over an increased temperature range. You may have experience some "pad fade" (different then fluid fade) but more than likely you over heated the tires.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BowTieBoy14 View Post
Thanks Norm, now that I am getting more comfortable at the track I will pay closer attention to how I am getting on and off the brakes. I will focus on more of a fast squeeze than a 0 to floor motion that I am probably unknowingly doing.

The general consensus sounds like the HP+ aren't exactly what I am looking for. I appreciate the help. I will look closer at the XP10/12s or possibly DTC lineup as Elihu suggested.

Elihu Smails, yes, I did track pads with 25k and 28K on them. As for the fluid it was new, but most likely Dot3. My first track day came up in haste as I got one week notice after making it off the wait list. At the time I was in an apartment with no time or place to do a flush myself to I took it to dealer and I imagine they used standard DOT 3. (I didn't know any better to ask for 4 at the time) I will be replacing with the Motul 600 dt4 fluid when I change the pads and brake lines.

Also sounds like I don't need to worry about the larger front splitter? I mean if I get function out of it great, but I'm trying to keep the doe towards handling / performance now, sex appeal can be added to later.

Thanks Guys
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Old 12-06-2016, 01:17 AM   #10
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x2 on the carbotech pads listed..BUT...you have to be them properly for them to last. That means glowing orage rotors when you put it away after bedding them. Also skip the Motul and go straight to SRF fluid, so you don't have to change it again once you start boiling the motul. Use my (and Norm's) $$$$$$$$ learning process on this car to your advantage
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Old 12-21-2016, 05:43 PM   #11
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Carbotechs are amazing, albeit I overheat'd xp8/xp10's. the bite works,
you need to progress through the HPDE learning curve, and adapt as the comfort level grows.
DO not over think.
I have over heated xp12 front, on a 2013 1LE.
But this is amongst Black/RED PCA group.
Side note : Norm, you have seen me a t NJMP.
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Old 12-22-2016, 03:10 PM   #12
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I had/have issues with ABS kicking in way too early on my 1LE as well. I tried to ease into the brakes as much as I could but ABS would kick in way before the wheels started locking up using NT01 tires. I even considered pulling the ABS fuse/relay and doing it the old fashioned way since there is no way I was remotely close to the cars braking threshold when ABS would kick in. I then upgraded to the Z06 calipers with DTC 70/60 combination and the ABS still kicks in way too early but I felt more in control of the braking, like I have on previous heavy track cars. When the ABS kicks in I press the brake pedal harder and the car will slow down just fine where before with the 4 piston front calipers it was a little unnerving in the braking zones. I even considered that an ABS sensor or something was going bad since a lot of guys are happy with their stock calipers with track pads/fluid for the track.

My recommendation based on my experience is to skip the track pads only upgrade and upgrade to the 6 piston setup. I tried several Hawk DTC and Raybestos ST track pads with the 4 piston setup and was never happy.
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Old 12-22-2016, 03:30 PM   #13
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Has anyone tried the Powerstop Pads?
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Old 12-29-2016, 12:43 AM   #14
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You have a 2014 1LE, dont waste time custom ducting, buy the z/28 duct kit and ur wheel liners already have a small ski ramp for cooling. Upgrade to six pistons front and the zL1 rotors. Try the factory pads, you will not find better pad for street and track period. Oh, SRF fluid, just do it, even though with the 6 pistons most dot 4 fluids work. For the minor cost difference just go SRF... I boiled motul 600 multiple times on the 4 pistons never tried again after that. Anyhow, stock pads will be fine with the brake ducts and zl1 rotors.... once you get silly fast youmight want to upgrade BUT better pads only means more heat and more headaches if you DD the car. Forget swapping on stock pads after track pads unless you want to change rotors too, the stock pads take for ever to wear off track deposit and result in crazy pulsation and uneven rotor deposits.... not to mention noise.

Ducts, 6 pistons stock pads and zl1 rotors with SRF.... if you stay 4 piston fronts track pads like XPs are prettymuch only solid answer (ducts and dot 4 still a must)
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