Camaro 1LE vs Mustang GT track pack (Motortrend)

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by ThaCamaroKid

I agree the live axle kills it completely, FOR a live axle they do handle well but if you compare to competition that just hurts them too much

I wouldn't exactly say "kills it completely", as the potential is still pretty good. Last year's SCCA Solo Nationals saw a full-weight air-conditioned mildly modified but still daily driven 2011 GT put up run times that topped ALL of the 5th gen Corvette times in A Stock (non-Z06 'Vettes). Even the top two F Stock Mustangs (one a 2007 model with the 4.6L engine!) would also have trophied in A Stock.

Watch SCCA's F Stock class this upcoming season, as the SCCA has seen fit to place the 1LE in that class, where it will run against the non-LS Boss if the reclassing of the Boss comes to pass. The Boss LS is not elibible for Stock class competition.

I'm not cheerleading for the stick axle as much as I'm suggesting that the "FOR a live axle" qualifier doesn't always amount to as much as the words themselves suggest. Under more "real world" conditions, there typically is more difference, and I get that.


Norm

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I wouldn't exactly say "kills it completely", as the potential is still pretty good. Last year's SCCA Solo Nationals saw a full-weight air-conditioned mildly modified but still daily driven 2011 GT put up run times that topped ALL of the 5th gen Corvette times in A Stock (non-Z06 'Vettes). Even the top two F Stock Mustangs (one a 2007 model with the 4.6L engine!) would also have trophied in A Stock.

Watch SCCA's F Stock class this upcoming season, as the SCCA has seen fit to place the 1LE in that class, where it will run against the non-LS Boss if the reclassing of the Boss comes to pass. The Boss LS is not elibible for Stock class competition.

I'm not cheerleading for the stick axle as much as I'm suggesting that the "FOR a live axle" qualifier doesn't always amount to as much as the words themselves suggest. Under more "real world" conditions, there typically is more difference, and I get that.


Norm

It really depends on the track layout and its condition.

[Norm Peterson]

Dead on with the comment about Mustangs and drag racing. Though there is a small movement toward corner-carving them.

Originally Posted by newmoon

All of us being honest here, how often do we compete with another car in the curves, whether it be on the track or the street. I have been running fast cars for nearly 30-years, I can't ever recall racing somebody through the curves. Not that I wouldn't like to give it a try someday.

Try an HPDE some time. You specifically wouldn't actually be competing and most times not even running timed laps, as the intent is to develop skills rather than to "win" anything. I suppose you could gauge whether you caught and passed more cars in your run group than caught and passed you as some measure of your performance.

Hardly anybody ever intentionally goes much past about 6/10ths cornering on the street and most people don't ever drive that hard. Street driving is spirited driving at best, and while driving at 5/10ths or so runs away and hides from most all other traffic it's nowhere near race pace.

Competitively, the simplest and perhaps the best place to get started is autocross.


Norm

[ThaCamaroKid]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I wouldn't exactly say "kills it completely", as the potential is still pretty good. Last year's SCCA Solo Nationals saw a full-weight air-conditioned mildly modified but still daily driven 2011 GT put up run times that topped ALL of the 5th gen Corvette times in A Stock (non-Z06 'Vettes). Even the top two F Stock Mustangs (one a 2007 model with the 4.6L engine!) would also have trophied in A Stock.

Watch SCCA's F Stock class this upcoming season, as the SCCA has seen fit to place the 1LE in that class, where it will run against the non-LS Boss if the reclassing of the Boss comes to pass. The Boss LS is not elibible for Stock class competition.

I'm not cheerleading for the stick axle as much as I'm suggesting that the "FOR a live axle" qualifier doesn't always amount to as much as the words themselves suggest. Under more "real world" conditions, there typically is more difference, and I get that.


Norm

What exactly is 'mildly modified' because I am talking stock cars here, with modifications there are almost no limits on what a car can do, great thing about cars

[ThaCamaroKid]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Yes but think about if from Ford's standpoint. Probably 90-95% of Mustang GTs owners that race these cars will do it on the drag strip, for this purpose the present rear-end axle setup is ideal. Try launching a SS at 3500-5000 rpms with DRs or slicks and see what happens.

All of us being honest here, how often do we compete with another car in the curves, whether it be on the track or the street. I have been running fast cars for nearly 30-years, I can't ever recall racing somebody through the curves. Not that I wouldn't like to give it a try someday.

What you have to remember is Ford's fan base for the mustang is the 1/4 mile, they focus on it. If they happen to get a car that handles well in the package it's just a bonus. Proven by examples like the 2013 GT500, 5.0 and 2013 Boss (while promoted as a corner carver, it still can lay down serious 1/4 mile times).

I am not going to argue that most people race in a straight line, because it is true, but autocross is becoming more and more popular, my car club for example does more autocross events than drag events, and as independent rears become more and more advanced they can be equally as good for straight line acceleration as a solid rear axle, maybe not when it comes to 2000 HP+ cars but I am talking street cars, not the big boys And I dont know about you but I'd be worried about driving around over 800+ horsepower on the streets to a solid rear axle. Then again I wouldn't know, never tried it

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by ThaCamaroKid

What exactly is 'mildly modified' because I am talking stock cars here, with modifications there are almost no limits on what a car can do, great thing about cars

Off the top of my head, the ESP car had different springs, shocks/struts, sta-bars, wide wheels with R-comps (that are also legal in Stock), Watts link replacing PHB, a custom tune, some custom exhaust work, and probably a few minor items I'm forgetting. I know that the camber setting was way outside Ford specs, but that's something that nobody who's serious about autocrossing leaves stock anyway. Hell, I'm outside factory specs on two of my daily-driven cars right now, and on a car I no longer have I ran nearly a degree outside the OE max negative spec on the street - and 2° PAST THAT for autocross).

Anyway, I think Terry Fair has an extensive STX/ESP build thread over on the blog at Vorshlag.com if you're curious and have a bit of time to spare.

Not "mildly modified" to me involves internal engine work, chassis stiffening beyond things like bolt-on tower braces, suspension pivot point relocation, rod ended suspension pivots, flaring bodywork for tire clearance. In SCCA Solo this stuff sends you to either C or X Prepared, or D or A Modified where anything built with anywhere close to the allowed limits doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being street-legal.

The more meaningful comparison may actually be the two F Stock cars vs the 'Vettes, since the same very limited preparation limits apply (R-compound tires, shocks, struts, one sta-bar, exhaust aft of the converters, and the air filter are about all you can change).


Norm

[doc7000]

Was watching a auto guide video of a 2013 Boss 302 Mustang vs a Lancer Evo MR.......

[Norm Peterson]

Care to PM me with a link?

No need to clutter up this thread any further given that no Camaro is featured in it.


Norm