ZL1 / CTS-V Brakes

[08G8V8]

That's what I thought the reason for changing the cross-over tube was, but the explanations given above are talking about maintaining the piston position. Don't see how piston position has changed, relative to rotor rotation!

[Beauwulf]

Originally Posted by 08G8V8

That's what I thought the reason for changing the cross-over tube was, but the explanations given above are talking about maintaining the piston position. Don't see how piston position has changed, relative to rotor rotation!

Your right... it hasn't changed the leading piston as you have described it.

[55Designs]

Justice Pete I have a CTSV and my front rotors warped at 11k miles, 4 dealers and none of them would fix this under warranty. Dealer cost on rotors i think was $800 but nobody had stock so I got frustrated and had them wet stone ground on this machine. They came out great but still have a slight shimmy. and I want new rotors badly

Any suggestions I also don',t want to spend $1300 on rotors for a car i am keeping another 12 months max. Aftermarket makes rears but nobody makes fronts.

Il be honest from Day 1 i never was impressed with these CTSV brakes, I swapped out lines fluid and 3 versions of the HAWK pads, I am now running HPS Street pads, i swear my AMG C63 and old BMW M5 stop much better and have better initial bite.

Not sure what all these OEM parts cost today or how hard to get but id say a Brembo aftermarket or Baer might give better performance overall. I waited 2 months trying to get front rotors and no luck.

Let us know what turns out of for alternatives.

[Chris_B]

Originally Posted by 08G8V8

That's what I thought the reason for changing the cross-over tube was, but the explanations given above are talking about maintaining the piston position. Don't see how piston position has changed, relative to rotor rotation!

Two things are of key importance when positioning calipers:

1. The bleed screws must be at the top, pointing upward. You'll never get the air bled out if they are pointing down.

2. The rotor meets the brake pad on the small piston end first. The larger piston is at the trailing edge to keep radial pad taper under control.

[Chris_B]

Originally Posted by 55Designs

Justice Pete I have a CTSV and my front rotors warped at 11k miles, 4 dealers and none of them would fix this under warranty. Dealer cost on rotors i think was $800 but nobody had stock so I got frustrated and had them wet stone ground on this machine. They came out great but still have a slight shimmy. and I want new rotors badly

Any suggestions I also don',t want to spend $1300 on rotors for a car i am keeping another 12 months max. Aftermarket makes rears but nobody makes fronts.

Il be honest from Day 1 i never was impressed with these CTSV brakes, I swapped out lines fluid and 3 versions of the HAWK pads, I am now running HPS Street pads, i swear my AMG C63 and old BMW M5 stop much better and have better initial bite.

Not sure what all these OEM parts cost today or how hard to get but id say a Brembo aftermarket or Baer might give better performance overall. I waited 2 months trying to get front rotors and no luck.

Let us know what turns out of for alternatives.

Sounds more like a pad bedding problem as opposed to a rotor issue. Try rebedding EXACTLY like Hawk recommends.

There is a YouTube video you can search for. HPS are OK pads, but not high in initial bite. You might want to try other options, but you will need to put up with more dust than the HPS.

[08G8V8]

Originally Posted by Chris_B

2. The rotor meets the brake pad on the small piston end first. The larger piston is at the trailing edge to keep radial pad taper under control.

So I have not seen the CTS-V caliper, but based on JusticePete's response above, the larger piston is on the leading edge. Not sure if this is true or not, but if it is, did Cadillac screw up?

Here are a few pics from one of the G8 guys who took Camaro calipers and installed them on the rear.

You can see the larger piston is on the side with the crossover tube, which is the leading piston when installed on the G8 the same as when installed on the Camaro, and also seems to match the Cadillac.

[Chris_B]

Originally Posted by 08G8V8

So I have not seen the CTS-V caliper, but based on JusticePete's response above, the larger piston is on the leading edge. Not sure if this is true or not, but if it is, did Cadillac screw up?

Here are a few pics from one of the G8 guys who took Camaro calipers and installed them on the rear.

You can see the larger piston is on the side with the crossover tube, which is the leading piston when installed on the G8 the same as when installed on the Camaro, and also seems to match the Cadillac.

I don't know who screwed up what, but that first picture is a LHL (Left Hand Leading) caliper. This means that it is to be mounted on the forward side of the axle and on the left side of the car.

Your 2nd picture is a LHT (Left Hand Trailing) position, but a LHL caliper is mounted there = FAIL!

You need to swap the pipes and bleeders on each caliper (turns a LHL caliper into a RHT and vice versa) and mount them on the opposite sides of the car --> done!

[08G8V8]

THANKS, I understand. I was confused based on the statement above from JusticePete stating the larger piston 1 being at the top(leading) position when mounted on the leading edge, and the pictures of the caliper I posted. It looks like after these calipers were re-assembled after refinishing, they did not put the crossover tube and bleeders in the proper position.

I now understand the statement from mike@thepowdercoater.com, the leading piston on both the Camaro and CTS-V calipers is the smaller piston, but crossover tube changes based on mounting position. This differs from what JusticePete stated, but then saw the pictures I posted so I was not sure what was right/wrong! "On the camaro caliper, the crossover tube is on the side with the smaller piston. Because the caliper sits on the leading edge of the rotor on the cadillac, rather than the trailing edge like the camaro, the crossover tube is on the side with the larger piston."

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 08G8V8

Here is a photo of a drivers side rear CTS-V on the left. As you state, the larger Piston #1 is on the top of the caliper and the cross-over tube is on the bottom of the caliper. As the rotor goes around forward, it hits Piston #1 first.

You take that same drivers side rear CTS-V caliper and rotate is 180 degrees to mount it on the rear of the axle, the picture on the right, Piston #1 now moves to the bottom of the caliper and the cross-over tube to the top. Rotor rotation remains the same, so as the rotor rotates forward, it still hits Piston #1 first.

This looks like it keeps the leading edge orientation as you stated above. What am I missing here?

You missed nothing and your illustration is spot on

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 55Designs

Justice Pete I have a CTSV and my front rotors warped at 11k miles, 4 dealers and none of them would fix this under warranty. Dealer cost on rotors i think was $800 but nobody had stock so I got frustrated and had them wet stone ground on this machine. They came out great but still have a slight shimmy. and I want new rotors badly

Any suggestions I also don',t want to spend $1300 on rotors for a car i am keeping another 12 months max. Aftermarket makes rears but nobody makes fronts.

Il be honest from Day 1 i never was impressed with these CTSV brakes, I swapped out lines fluid and 3 versions of the HAWK pads, I am now running HPS Street pads, i swear my AMG C63 and old BMW M5 stop much better and have better initial bite.

Not sure what all these OEM parts cost today or how hard to get but id say a Brembo aftermarket or Baer might give better performance overall. I waited 2 months trying to get front rotors and no luck.

Let us know what turns out of for alternatives.

First from Brembo

29th January 2008 - Brembo Joins with Cadillac CTS-V to Introduce New Brake Technology

First Use of Dual-Cast Brake Discs in North America

Brembo took the opportunity of the North American International Auto
Show (NAIAS) today to showcase major original equipment (OE) fitments on two of America’s top performance vehicles, including the 2009 Cadillac CTS-V.

Long known as the supplier of high-performance brakes to the premier European auto manufacturers, Brembo achieved significant OE growth in North America the past six months with Harley Davidson, the American motorcycle icon, and now with unique new brake technology for Cadillac.

The 2009 Cadillac CTS-V will employ Brembo’s dual-Cast 14.5-in (370mm) rotor for the first time in North America, with six-piston monoblock front calipers. Unlike traditional cast iron discs, dual-cast discs are made of two materials – cast iron and aluminium – and offer many advantages, including a 15-20 per cent reduction in weight, greater driving comfort, less corrosion, wear and resistance to fade, and better braking performance.

The Dual-Cast floating brake disc has a cast-iron braking surface and an aluminum hat: ideally combining the advantages of heat-resistance provided by cast iron with the lightweight properties of aluminum. The innovation is in the way the two materials have been combined in a single component and in the behavior of the disc during operation. The rotor function effectively as an integral disc at low temperatures; then as a floating disc at high temperatures, when maximum performance is needed and distortion tends to occur. The Dual-Cast brake disc also responds to the demand for much lighter components, in combination with an improved feel when braking in extreme operating conditions, and with increased resistance to fatigue at higher temperatures. As a result, incidences of both transient and permanent thermal distortion can be significantly reduced. Transient deformation events occur typically when the brakes are applied, and the discs run hot; whereas permanent disc distortion is the main cause of vibration during braking in the vehicle.

Cast iron has optimum thermal properties — low deformability and good heat conductivity — as well as process-related advantages, such as superior castability and machineability. It also has practical advantages, like good damping properties. Aluminum, on the other hand, is advantageously lightweight, being 2½ times less dense than cast iron, with the result that the Dual-Cast disc can be made between 15 and 20 per cent lighter than its integral counterpart, depending on the application. This represents an important achievement, since auto manufacturers consider a one-kg reduction in overall weight to be a real success; and, even more so, when unsprung weight is reduced, given the notably positive influence on comfort and driving precision.

Brembo Co-Cast System for Cadillac

Unlike an integral disc, the Dual-Cast brake disc presents a symmetrical braking surface, favoring a more uniform temperature distribution when the brakes are applied: this means considerably less residual deformation after the brake is released. This effectively mirrors the performance capabilities of a floating disc, but without the number of components needed for a floating assembly.

By virtue of the properties characterizing the two Dual-Cast materials, this new disc succeeds in reducing wear both on the disc and on the pad in off brake condition. In addition to the North American OE, the past year has been an extraordinary one for Brembo as additional fitments have been achieved on Lexus’ top-performing IS-F, as well as the first ever Dual-Cast brake system for Maserati’s Quattroporte Sport GTS.

It appears that the OE dual cast rotors are available from the online houses and GM Dealers according to a recent post and my friends at Brembo. Rumor has it they are about $500 a pair.

So much for the good news. The bad news is that some CTS-V owners are seeing an issue with the dual cast rotors after intense use -- a slight vibration -- similar to yours. We did not have any issues with our CTS-V dual cast rotors.

[JusticePete]

Bump for EncoreCamaros

[JusticePete]

Bump for EncoreCamaros

[calbert1999]

If price was not a concern would you still recommend the CTS-V brakes or something else that's better?
My vehicle is being built up for clost to 1000hp. at the crank, not much driving time left for this year but most likely will need much better brakes next spring.
Considering, I've surpassed the power of the CTS-V by about 300+hp. would you suggest using the same brakes?

[yooper1901]

Great work JusticePete. I have been testing a new 2pc rotor designed for the OEM CTSV 6 piston calipers on my 04 CTSV at Road America.

We have three track days completed and will run Two more next weekend.

We are running the Cobalt Racing XR1 pads with 3" air ducts.

How many 5th Gens are running these calipers and what rotors and pads are being used?

Thanks