Difference between Trifecta and IPF

[BNRacing]

Originally Posted by ASH@EDS

Hello !

this data here : http://www.ipf-tuning.com/powertune/
belongs to the LLT 36V6 engine with Bosch ECU and 91Oct West coast Fuel !!

With 93Oct East Coast fuel you get +10-15PS more !

Im always surprised how much somebody thinks to know about the IPF-TUNING tool and programming .... !


regards ASH@IPF-TUNING

I wasn't claiming to know anything about IPF, but I do know without a shadow of a doubt that the LLT's ECM doesn't display HP or TQ calculations anywhere so I'm curious to know how you got those flywheel numbers. Did you take the engine out and put it on an engine dyno?

[SixCyl]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

Second, I still don't understand why they can get 30HP stock out of an LFX but half of that out of an LLT. Sure, the Bosch is harder to tune...blah blah blah....but if all the parameters are there to make similar tweaks as are being done to the LFX, why can't the LLT achieve similar numbers? Thats where my mind has been this entire time since this whole IPF tune debacle started. Someone smarter in this area than me, please feel free to explain to me where I am going wrong here.

I don'y know if this logic applies to ECU's but... I imagine it is similar to a locked boot loader on certain android devices or a better example, the way the mac OS is locked in comparison to Linux or even Windows. It's not uncrackable, but I don't think someone has unlocked all the parameters yet.

[sycraft]

OK, BNR I will send you a PM withh my contact information. I have arranged a stock LLT Camaro for the test, no mods have been done and still running the OE tune. Once we get the details and times hammered out, I will post the details.

[markgws6]

At least we have more than one choice for tunes now. If you think about it in computer terms, and if you ever tried over-clocking a computer before, some CPUs let you tune some things differently but the locks are there for safe-guards so you don't end up shooting yourself in the foot. But some people do -volt modding and super cooling, so they want an unlocked CPU firmware to be able to tweak it further. Generally the higher end CPU will already be unlocked for this reason. That might be a similar reason to how our LLT ECU is manufactured. Not to say it can't be done, or that it is not a higher end product, but that one "may" likely have to almost reverse engineer it at the machine language level to be able to set those "locked" settings. But being I've not worked on it I'm just speculating.

[SixCyl]

Originally Posted by sycraft

OK, BNR I will send you a PM withh my contact information. I have arranged a stock LLT Camaro for the test, no mods have been done and still running the OE tune. Once we get the details and times hammered out, I will post the details.

[rock1962]

All it would take for me to get the IPF tune is to see an actual dyno sheet with a naturally aspirated LLT getting 300 hp with minor mods ( intake,headers,throttle body) because if you are getting 10% with this tune it should be possible to crack 300 to the wheels with premium fuel.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by Can't_C_Me

From what I have always understood about the Bosch is that all the parameters weren't unlocked to better tune it. Maybe this is where IPF has excelled at who knows but them.


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by SixCyl

I don'y know if this logic applies to ECU's but... I imagine it is similar to a locked boot loader on certain android devices or a better example, the way the mac OS is locked in comparison to Linux or even Windows. It's not uncrackable, but I don't think someone has unlocked all the parameters yet.

I understand that if certain parameters are locked and can't be accessed how that would affect the tuning in the LLT versus the LFX ECMs. But IPF seems to imply they have access to more of these parameters, and if so, I would think they could do a better tune.

I guess we will see!

Originally Posted by rock1962

All it would take for me to get the IPF tune is to see an actual dyno sheet with a naturally aspirated LLT getting 300 hp with minor mods ( intake,headers,throttle body) because if you are getting 10% with this tune it should be possible to crack 300 to the wheels with premium fuel.

Lets see...10% of 312 is 31HP. 312 + 31 is 343hp. Take a manual V6 at 343crank horsepower and apply a 15% loss (although I feel it may be a percent or two more than that) and your at 291rwhp. So with bolt ons, and if the tune works as advertised, 300rwhp should be doable with only a few bolt ons. An automatic car would be more difficult.

But it seems to be easier said than done. Been chasing the bolt on only 300rwhp goal on the V6 for a long while now, and have not yet seen dyno proof of it. Bmorecam is the closest, and he had full bolt ons. We suspected he was at or very near 300+ rwhp but the dyno didn't show it...we felt it was a low reading dyno. Who knows!

[Korrosion]

Originally Posted by sycraft

If Billy falls through, you can be in line for #2...

IPF does not lock their tune, can be flashed back to stock. So I am unclear, do we have Trifecta on board with a donated tune...? BNR do you want to use your Dyno? Let me know. I am off to PRI Wednesday and we can get set up for the following week. IPF tune is ready and willing. Heads up...

Originally Posted by sycraft

OK, BNR I will send you a PM withh my contact information. I have arranged a stock LLT Camaro for the test, no mods have been done and still running the OE tune. Once we get the details and times hammered out, I will post the details.

I am good to go!!

[Redline Motorsports]

Interesting thread here boys.....i'm the one that posted that statement on EFI Live and with valid points....personally I could care less about this tune vs. tune challenge as anyone who knows engine management calibration will tell you....cars vary so the mail order "TUNE"... doesn't always work.

Also note I have a great amount of behind the scene experience with SERIES 11 Global Architecture which IS the next wave of torque based engine management which these DI motors use. They are quite complicated to "PROPERLY" calibrate without OEM tools.....so.......what people are doing is what we call a "work around"....both HPT and EFIL have done a great job giving us enough to "work around" but its still fundamentally wrong.

I have had the experience and access to ETAS INCA which is the software that GM uses to develop the calibrations in these vehicles. Trust me its an involved algorithm. My view on calibrating properly is calibrate like GM did! Don't rape tables if you don't need to. Its just bites you in the ass sooner or later..

Regarding a shoot out.....we have a track rental on December 9th at PBIR.....bring your cars and your "tunes" and knock the BS off!

I'll be watching this thread as it was brought to my attention that some digs where directed to us based upon my statements. I stand behind them because I truly understand OEM calibration methods used prior and looking ahead.

Howard

[sycraft]

This is why Redline is a step ahead of the rest, he understands calibration and stays on top of the technology..

[Can't_C_Me]

Originally Posted by Redline Motorsports

Interesting thread here boys.....i'm the one that posted that statement on EFI Live and with valid points....personally I could care less about this tune vs. tune challenge as anyone who knows engine management calibration will tell you....cars vary so the mail order "TUNE"... doesn't always work.

Also note I have a great amount of behind the scene experience with SERIES 11 Global Architecture which IS the next wave of torque based engine management which these DI motors use. They are quite complicated to "PROPERLY" calibrate without OEM tools.....so.......what people are doing is what we call a "work around"....both HPT and EFIL have done a great job giving us enough to "work around" but its still fundamentally wrong.

I have had the experience and access to ETAS INCA which is the software that GM uses to develop the calibrations in these vehicles. Trust me its an involved algorithm. My view on calibrating properly is calibrate like GM did! Don't rape tables if you don't need to. Its just bites you in the ass sooner or later..

Regarding a shoot out.....we have a track rental on December 9th at PBIR.....bring your cars and your "tunes" and knock the BS off!

I'll be watching this thread as it was brought to my attention that some digs where directed to us based upon my statements. I stand behind them because I truly understand OEM calibration methods used prior and looking ahead.

Howard

This was a good read thank you!

So basically put up or shut up is what's left to be said. Got the track, dyno, car, and tunes.


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

[Redline Motorsports]

Originally Posted by Can't_C_Me

This was a good read thank you!

So basically put up or shut up is what's left to be said. Got the track, dyno, car, and tunes.


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

My post was really directed at the individuals that wanted to challenge my statements. This tune vs tune makes for great internet poking. I'm sure they both work well but if needs to be settled then put them in the ring!

He who understands the engines dynamics the best and has the tools will win.

Howard

[RubyCamaro]

[chozn4service]

Originally Posted by RubyCamaro

I'd have some of that popcorn with you Ruby but since I've been diagnosed with diverticulitis back in '09, that ain't happening anymore.