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Old 01-09-2011, 10:18 AM   #169
Granatelli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norris_83 View Post
Interesting, you saying the stock manifolds won't be a limiting factor later down the line? On a cam/heads project, stock manifolds are a limiting factor?
When you make this statement, are you referring to a Turbo Car or a car that is N/A or Superchargerd? We need to all be on the same page. Even that has been discussed within these forum walls many times. Here is the readers digest version of those results:

1. 2010 Car tested with heads and cam N/A, ALL STOCK EXH SYS - it made 450 rwhp

2. 2010 Car tested with heads and cam N/A, STOCK MANIFOLDS off heads going into hand built 2.5” (manifold back) SYS - it made 472 rwhp (so 22hp)

3. 2010 Car tested with heads and cam N/A, STOCK MANIFOLDS off heads going into hand built 3.0” (manifold back) SYS - it made 476 rwhp (so 26hp)

4. 2010 Car tested with heads and cam N/A, ARH Headers into all 3” SYS - it made 479 rwhp (so 29hp)

It should be noted before each final number was reached and reported a custom tune was performed. What the test showed was 1 ¾ headers and all 3” system were basically worth only 7hp over just getting rid of the cats from a stone stock 2.5” car.

The same “type” test was performance on a stock engine like a year ago where no “tuning was allowed”, just bolt it on and test. In that case the numbers were even more lopsided in favor of not needing headers as they showed very little gain over just opening up the restriction of the stock cats.

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Originally Posted by norris_83 View Post
I was talking about the turbonetics 3" dp. (downpipe) Haven't seen your kit in detail yet to see any pro or faults, maybe you could post up some clear pics like this thread.
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Originally Posted by norris_83 View Post
Why on earth would there be extra heat on a single turbo setup compared to a twin? There is no parasitic loss to create friction on a single bigger turbo, and both setups are run by the exhaust? On a twin there would actually be more, 2 dps, 2 exhaust turbines and 2 turbos sharing one intercooler or 2 intercoolers half the size of on large one?
There is not "more" on twins becuase they split the load - Singles pile all the exhaust into a single restriction as were twins cut that in half. Sure if you could get a 4" DP in there then the single would perhaps match the Twins but it still not be considered better or more efficient - it is really symantics - they all make power

There is a great thread that addressed just that. I will attach it below.

Respectfully, I think you are misapplying the phyics of what, where and how “parasitic losses” are measured. The term parasitic loss is often applied to devices that take energy from the engine in order to enhance the engine's ability to create more energy. In an internal combustion engine for example, almost everything, including the driveshaft, causes a parasitic loss. Any bearings, the oil pump, piston rings, valve springs, the weight of the flywheels, what transmission you run, heck anything in the drive line, eveb the differential will rob the system of power.

Look at it like this, an oil pump, being used to lubricate the engine, is a necessary parasite (parasitic loss) that consumes power from the engine (its host).
More direct and specific to your questioning is a centrifugal or roots type supercharger, which gets its ability to make power from the engine (the host) but creates more power for the engine as a trade off. The power that the supercharger consumes is parasitic loss and is usually expressed in horsepower (HP) or (RWHP). While the HP that the supercharger consumes in comparison to what it generates is a small trade off for the end result, it is still measurable or calculable. That leads us back to the Turbo. One of the desirable features of a turbocharger over a supercharger is the lower parasitic loss of the supercharger. Here is teh post from last year I was quoting

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Originally Posted by dracer98 View Post
I will do what he asked and back it up with fact...The question is all about the various 2010 turbo options out there and how reliable can they be.

Today most turbo manufactures make very reliable products - That is not to be confused by the various kit makers. You have many choices and types:

Turbonetics has also developed a single top mount that they claim will ultimately by 50 state legal

Single top mount systems require a cross over pipe that merges all the exhaust flow and energy into the "hot side" of the turbocharger. You basically take all the heat that is radiating out of the heads which is also known as energy and channel it into the turbo.

Why I don't particularly care for the top mount design - Like I said it puts all that heat off the cylinder heads right over the valve cover (s) or better said, in the immediate surrounding area of where it is mounted. Take for example the new Turbonetics kit coming down the pike. It mounts the turbo in a location that could considered more mid top mount. Turbonetics mounts the turbo at the 2 0-clock position and shoves it forward a few inches to keep heat off the front of the engine dress.

Like they say everyone has an opinion on the subject and my opinion is - Don't ever mount a turbocharger with super hot exhaust right next to the spark plug wires, the coils, the valve covers, ABS unit and the likes. You ask why companies do it then. Simple Turbonetics tells you they would prefer to run twins but there is no way to accomplish that 50 state legally. Meaning the law states you cannot move or alter the cats at all. – Turbonetics marries the exhaust at the front and mounts the single turbo high because in order to build a Y pipe AFTER THE FACTORY CATALYTICs there is no way to get a big enough single turbo under the car. So, it ends up high.

– Turbo lag(The time required to bring the turbo up to a speed where it can function effectively by compressing air into the engine (aka) lag is the delay between the instant a car's accelerator is depressed and the time the turbocharger take to make boost and some would say full boost.)Whenever you talk to “anti-turbo” people they want to talk about turbo lag. A better definition would be boost lag – and boost lag can be measured in any compressor application. Certainly the centrifugal blower companies can’t preach about lag because their blowers make boost based solely on engine RPM – that means the turbo makes peak boost sooner and maintains it longer than a centrifugal. The Magnuson, Kenne Bell, Whipple crowd make boost sooner than the turbo and carry it through out the engine RPM but it comes at the cost of crank HP robbed to spin the unit (PARASITIC LOSS). –

Foot Note - Although a turbo's position in the exhaust stream does restrict exhaust flow potential to some extent, the pumping losses are much less than the parasitic drag induced by a conventional supercharger's belt or gears. In a typical gasoline-fueled engine, it's common to see 30 out of every 100 hp added by a belt driven supercharger being wasted turning the drive pulleys and belts; this compares to about 5-10 hp per every 100 suffered as pumping losses by a typically well-designed turbo installation.

Interesting to note: Considered as a system, a good twin turbo setup has less heat buildup than a large single turbo system. Additionally, the twin turbo setup has less heat buildup than a Magnuson/Kenne Bell/Whipple type blower, and its smaller size compared to a centrifugal supercharger permits higher compressor-wheel rotational speeds and more radical blade-tip curvature that collectively translate into greater pumping efficiency. A large single turbo system radiates heat more in line with that of a non intercooled centrifugal type.

You can’t go wrong with forced induction on your Camaro and the choices are plenty

Last edited by Granatelli; 01-09-2011 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 01-09-2011, 10:39 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by gotpball44 View Post
Dont worry they dont touch lol. Why would they sell a kit to everyone if the pipes are rubbing on the pulleys lol. Im pretty sure they are smart enough to make them not touch. I got mine installed and there is no rubbing or clearance issues. They didn't have a car at SEMA this year by the way. That was probably a pre-production kit like what was on my car a while back.
They did have a car there - these pics are that car. and these pics show the pipe had been touching. You could see where the A/C pulley had cut through the thermo wrapp. My point is - it get awefull crowded up there and there are cutting it super close. I know first hand as I saw it face to face or should I say face to front of the engine Naturally they are not selling it that way on purpose - Here are more pics of their SEMA car FROM this year









Note the differences from your car last year - in their booth to this car in the front of the show. I like how they made the coolant and red over flow tanks
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:46 AM   #171
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Since I started this thread and this thread is very specifically about the Turbonetics kit I'm wondering why Granettelli feels its good form to try hijacking my thread for their obvious purposes. Mr. Granatelli I would politely ask you to remove your marketing posts from the thread I started and if you are solely focused on marketing your own kit start your own thread to do so. If I wanted to discuss your turbo kit (which is worthless for me here in California where it isn't legal) I would have started a thread about your kit.

I'm also quite surprised to see such a brash hijack attempt by a forum sponsor. It seems quite disrespectful of you to not only attempt to take the spotlight in a thread that have nothing to do with you, but essentially bash Turbonetics for their kit design in a thread specifically about them. If I had any interest in any of your other parts before I certainly don't anymore. I've reported your postings to the Moderators.

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Old 01-09-2011, 11:59 AM   #172
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I think your getting alittle carried away.......although I agree that Granettelli is pushing the limits(of high jacking) but not done so IMO, he has just answered some questions and posted some pics.
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:05 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Turbo99 View Post
I think your getting alittle carried away.......although I agree that Granettelli is pushing the limits(of high jacking) but not done so IMO, he has just answered some questions and posted some pics.
We'll let the mods decide I suppose but I don't see how pictures and information about the Granatelli kit are relevant in a Turbonetics kit thread.
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Old 01-09-2011, 12:31 PM   #174
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I agree with the pics of their kit are not really relevant.
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:01 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA View Post
Since I started this thread and this thread is very specifically about the Turbonetics kit I'm wondering why Granettelli feels its good form to try hijacking my thread for their obvious purposes. Mr. Granatelli I would politely ask you to remove your marketing posts from the thread I started and if you are solely focused on marketing your own kit start your own thread to do so. If I wanted to discuss your turbo kit (which is worthless for me here in California where it isn't legal) I would have started a thread about your kit.

I'm also quite surprised to see such a brash hijack attempt by a forum sponsor. It seems quite disrespectful of you to not only attempt to take the spotlight in a thread that have nothing to do with you, but essentially bash Turbonetics for their kit design in a thread specifically about them. If I had any interest in any of your other parts before I certainly don't anymore. I've reported your postings to the Moderators.
I realize you started this thread to talk about one particular kit, but it is an open forum, and you are not a paying sponsor, so.....
It might be thread jacking, but, I for one am glad to have relevant information like is being provided. I for one would not want to purchase a Forced induction with so much potential for problems. If someone in the business that knows what to look for wants to pipe in information that is valuable to potential customers, then I'm for it. JMO...

Thank You for starting the thread though, information is the key to any modifications and the use of our hard earned money...
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:35 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS View Post
I realize you started this thread to talk about one particular kit, but it is an open forum, and you are not a paying sponsor, so.....
It might be thread jacking, but, I for one am glad to have relevant information like is being provided. I for one would not want to purchase a Forced induction with so much potential for problems. If someone in the business that knows what to look for wants to pipe in information that is valuable to potential customers, then I'm for it. JMO...

Thank You for starting the thread though, information is the key to any modifications and the use of our hard earned money...
I'm all for discussing the kit and it's design but I don't see how marketing their own kit in this thread is relevant at all. The discussion on the changes to the kit and the improvement since it's initial release at SEMA and the currently shipping revision were all very valuable but posting pics of a kit that is not this one isn't relevant or appropriate here IMHO
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Old 01-09-2011, 01:41 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA View Post
I'm all for discussing the kit and it's design but I don't see how marketing their own kit in this thread is relevant at all. The discussion on the changes to the kit and the improvement since it's initial release at SEMA and the currently shipping revision were all very valuable but posting pics of a kit that is not this one isn't relevant or appropriate here IMHO
Great point, and again thanks for starting the thread...
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:57 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA View Post
Since I started this thread and this thread is very specifically about the Turbonetics kit I'm wondering why Granettelli feels its good form to try hijacking my thread for their obvious purposes. Mr. Granatelli I would politely ask you to remove your marketing posts from the thread I started and if you are solely focused on marketing your own kit start your own thread to do so. If I wanted to discuss your turbo kit (which is worthless for me here in California where it isn't legal) I would have started a thread about your kit.

I'm also quite surprised to see such a brash hijack attempt by a forum sponsor. It seems quite disrespectful of you to not only attempt to take the spotlight in a thread that have nothing to do with you, but essentially bash Turbonetics for their kit design in a thread specifically about them. If I had any interest in any of your other parts before I certainly don't anymore. I've reported your postings to the Moderators.
I did not hi-jack the thread - I voiced my concerns - never once bringing up my own kit until asked to show pics

Sorry you feel the way you do. Our kit is legal, not sure why people keep under understanding the C.A.R.B

As for thier kit design - Turbonetics themselves will be the first to admit the short coming of their design - all in an attempt to be able to sell a shippable 50 state legal kit.

In fact if married to a single turbo is your requirement we sell and install their Gen 5 kits.
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:57 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granatelli View Post
They did have a car there - these pics are that car. and these pics show the pipe had been touching. You could see where the A/C pulley had cut through the thermo wrapp. My point is - it get awefull crowded up there and there are cutting it super close. I know first hand as I saw it face to face or should I say face to front of the engine Naturally they are not selling it that way on purpose - Here are more pics of their SEMA car FROM this year









Note the differences from your car last year - in their booth to this car in the front of the show. I like how they made the coolant and red over flow tanks

Oh yea keep forgetting their car was outside and not in their booth. Yea the pipe now is a bit further from the AC unit. But it it is still a lil close, but no problems with it.
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:08 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Turbo99 View Post
I think your getting alittle carried away.......although I agree that Granettelli is pushing the limits(of high jacking) but not done so IMO, he has just answered some questions and posted some pics.
I sincerely was not trying to thread jack - just add insight - i changed the posts as requested
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:10 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA View Post
I'm all for discussing the kit and it's design but I don't see how marketing their own kit in this thread is relevant at all. The discussion on the changes to the kit and the improvement since it's initial release at SEMA and the currently shipping revision were all very valuable but posting pics of a kit that is not this one isn't relevant or appropriate here IMHO
Again - it is your thread and while I did not mean to "jack it" and only answer as requested - i made the changes you asked for
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:33 PM   #182
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I sincerely was not trying to thread jack - just add insight - i changed the posts as requested

I didn't think you were, I saw where you were asked about your kit. Thats why I said you were inside the limit IMO.

Plus I am putting your kit on my car soon..LOL
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