Flex vs PC

[JB @ C and L Machine]

Been reading up on the flex...seems to be a better choice over the PC

any thoughts?

http://www.autopia.org/forum/search.php?searchid=395100

[Adam's Polishes]

Couple of things about the flex:

Its a great tool, no question, but you are limited on pad choices as the backing plates are not changeable.

Additionally, its not AS safe for novice use as the PC as the head has forced rotation in addition to the oscillation. Its not as easy to do damage like with a rotary, but the potential is higher with the flex vs. the PC

Lastly there are questions of quality. Many people have to regularly send the units in for repair or replace them due to machine failure. The PC on the other hand is about as reliable a tool as exists, considering the volume of them sold there is a very low failure rate.

All that being said I can't say the Flex is a bad choice, but for the additional money there isn't a whole lot of extra benefit to be had... the cut will be more than a PC, but far less than a rotary.

[2LTRS]

What Dylan said.

Beat me to it... My 3401 vrg took a crap on me, and I have yet to replace it. Its hard for me to justify the $300 on a new one when my PC7424xp is running like a champ! Its nice to have both machines, but since I'm just a hobby detailer - its not really worth the price when I have a family to feed.

[MuttGrunt]

Flex DA is nice - we've yet to have any problems with ours.

That being said... stay the hell away from the new PC's (7424XP) I know two people that have had them break at horrible times (the metal piece that holds the backing plate broke in both cases, one person damaged paint as the backing plate hit the car).
Griot's DA, Meguiar's G110v2, Festool DA, etc are likely the answer. So far we love our Griot's DA.

[CamaroDreams07]

Originally Posted by MuttGrunt

Flex DA is nice - we've yet to have any problems with ours.

That being said... stay the hell away from the new PC's (7424XP) I know two people that have had them break at horrible times (the metal piece that holds the backing plate broke in both cases, one person damaged paint as the backing plate hit the car).
Griot's DA, Meguiar's G110v2, Festool DA, etc are likely the answer. So far we love our Griot's DA.

Sounds like either terrible luck or user error. I can't see that piece just breaking during polishing unless you were pushing way too hard and on a weird angle. I have well over 100 hours on mine in 2 months and haven't had a single issue. I don't think anyone has anything to fear from the PC. Like Dylan says, they have a MUCH lower failure rate than the alternatives.

[FloydSummerOf68]

I still work with my original PC 7424 and get plenty of correction out of it.

I have been thinking of getting a Flex and keeping the PC as a backup, but haven't jumped into purchasing one just yet.

[garcmol]

Originally Posted by Dylan@Adams

Couple of things about the flex:

Its a great tool, no question, but you are limited on pad choices as the backing plates are not changeable.

Additionally, its not AS safe for novice use as the PC as the head has forced rotation in addition to the oscillation. Its not as easy to do damage like with a rotary, but the potential is higher with the flex vs. the PC

Lastly there are questions of quality. Many people have to regularly send the units in for repair or replace them due to machine failure. The PC on the other hand is about as reliable a tool as exists, considering the volume of them sold there is a very low failure rate.

All that being said I can't say the Flex is a bad choice, but for the additional money there isn't a whole lot of extra benefit to be had... the cut will be more than a PC, but far less than a rotary.

Will the return policy be in effect if there is a reliability issue? Or, is it a return to manufacturer? I own both and purchased my Flex 3401 months ago from another vendor. I just don't understand this huge shift I'm reading in newer threads to the Flex over the PC after reading this. Never had a problem with either tool.

Originally Posted by 2LTRS

What Dylan said.

Beat me to it... My 3401 vrg took a crap on me, and I have yet to replace it. Its hard for me to justify the $300 on a new one when my PC7424xp is running like a champ! Its nice to have both machines, but since I'm just a hobby detailer - its not really worth the price when I have a family to feed.

And yet I'm reading a new thread where you took delivery of a new Flex kit and it's the best thing since sliced bread. Now I'm really confused.


Guys, I'm not bashing here, I just believe some clarification is in order. I use Adam's products (and Zaino) and will continue to do so. This huge shift though in thinking has got me baffled.

[Adam's Polishes]

We have been stating this regularly in all our threads, the Flex is in no way a replacement for the PC... its a supplement to it. The PC is a much better tool for a beginner and is capable of a lot of things, if you're only going to have ONE tool in your collection the PC is the one to have. For example since my truck is mostly in good shape, save for a few panel that I purposely neglected for testing purposes, the PC will be more than sufficient to maintain it... it'll be rare that I need to break out the Flex for my own personal use.

If you are going to do more serious corrections, but don't have the skill (or nerves) to take up high speed buffing with a rotary the Flex is a safer alternative that will get you much closer to perfection even on hammered finishes that the PC would struggle or be unable to completely correct.

The Flex does run very warm/hot, my original unit went in for service a few times as it quit on me after a few big corrections (first was an issue with the power cord, second it seized up). We've received endless assurances from Flex that the questionable durability issues with the Flex have been remedied. I purchased my original unit quite a long time ago so taking them at their word that the issues a few of us who had used the machines before had been addressed we decided to jump in... also our full warranty still applies (to units purchased thru us) as it always has. We wouldn't take on that kind of warranty for a machine that was going to fail all the time and end up being costly for us to repair/replace all the time.

Like I put in the post you quoted - the flex isn't a bad choice, but the OP was asking from the perspective of one over the other. Not a "huge shift in thinking" at all, I maintain that unless you need the additional correcting ability and already have a PC it isn't a machine to be your only one. The limited pad sizes due to the fixed (non-changeable) backing plate is a major downside... with the PC you can use any number of pad sizes - I for example use the 4" all the time to buff the A, B, & C pillars on my truck, around my door handles, mirror caps, front bumper, rear bumper, etc. These are all places you would literally have to leave untreated or do by hand if relying ONLY on the Flex.

Also, we tested extensively and determined that our Machine Superwax was no fun to apply with the flex... it can be done, but the results are spotty and the PC does a much better job. Not wanting to set our customers up for failure with a product we have made the open recommendation to use the PC for MSW application. Its even documented in our writeup HERE

This general stance that the PC is good, the Flex is supplement was also why we worked so hard to develop our new compound to work well with the Flex and the PC, many iterations of the product were great with the flex, but difficult or ineffective with the PC. This gives our customers an option to simply step up the level of aggressiveness of the PC if desired by simply going to the new compound and pad combo. If something more is needed, then the Flex is the next step up, but we do center all our systems around the PC as it remains the best machine for our target customer - enthusiast detailers who are either new to, or still learning detailing. The Flex offering comes about as the needs of our long time customers have expanded.

So to sum it up, Adam's official position on the machine hasn't changed... its a great tool, but not for everyone. The PC should still be the core of your detailing arsenal, and if you want additional correcting ability or want to cut working times down in larger areas the Flex is the way to go.

[garcmol]

I appreciate the clarification. I too have tried to spread MSW with the Flex. Even on level 1, the MSW grabbed on so quick the machine wanted to walk away.

[Dr Jkel]

Nice write up Dylan. MY question for you is this about the flex vs pc. It appears to me that pretty much on a yearly basis, depending on driving mileage, weather etc... that your vehicle needs to be detailed. If you take great care then the most you will do is polish it up, as polishing is the basis of your shine. Since the flex is faster isn't it better to use the flex in this application even if there is not alot of correcting to be done.

Also I was " TOLD " that the flex is more to "rough in" and the PC is more to refine the finish. What do you think about that statement?

Thanks,

john

[Adam's Polishes]

Originally Posted by garcmol

I appreciate the clarification. I too have tried to spread MSW with the Flex. Even on level 1, the MSW grabbed on so quick the machine wanted to walk away.

No problem... I can see why you'd be confused, more than happy to clarify. Behind the scenes for well over a year now we've been playing with options to bring on as a more aggressive polisher (Makita B06040, Festool, Bosch, etc) and the primary reasoning was that myself, AJ, Adam, Mario had all had questionable reliability with our Flex. Customers like Ryan had echo'd that concern as well so before we 'got in bed' with Flex we wanted to be sure we weren't gonna regret it or that a better solution didn't exist.

On the MSW thing then you can definitely understand why we steered clear of the Flex for that purpose... its a real nightmare on black b/c the secondary hazing REALLY looks blotchy b/c the Flex just won't apply it evenly. You can kind of skirt the problem by using a pad like our hex cut PC pads, but even then its still a bit of a crap shoot. On light colors not so much, but black... don't get me started.

But conflict leads to progress... we're planning on adding a new sealant to the line

Originally Posted by Dr Jkel

Nice write up Dylan. MY question for you is this about the flex vs pc. It appears to me that pretty much on a yearly basis, depneding on driving mileage, weather etc... that your vehicle needs to be detailed. If you take great care then the most you will do is polish it up, as polishing is the basis of your shine. Since the flex is faster isn't it better to use the flex in this application even if there is not alot of correcting to be done.

Also I was " TOLD " that the flex is more to "rough in" and the PC is more to refine the finish. What do you think about that statement?

Thanks,

john

I generally tell people, on a lower mileage car, thats garaged and maintained using good wash technique, etc. you can anticipate on doing SOME correction on your paint at 1-2x per year. My truck is a daily driver, black, and makes regular runs to home depot, hauls stuff around, etc so I'm 2x a year if not more.

The degree to which you'll need to correct will be hard to say as it will vary from person to person depending on what the paint is exposed to during the course of a season. You may have some isolated areas that need more severe correction, but for the mostpart if you keep up on it you won't need a very aggressive approach.

I wouldn't say the Flex is a rough in machine.... it finishes well. A rotary polisher is much harder to finish with, and I'd speculate that most pros (at least the ones I know) finish with a DA after major correction with a rotary. I've never been happy with the way I finish with a rotary so no matter what I'm pulling out the PC as my last step polisher. The Flex, falling somewhere in the middle, is capable of finishing down well without needing the PC behind it IMO. I have no issue getting to where I want with the Flex and the right technique.

Since we're talking about just minor cleanup and finishing either machine is perfectly capable of doing that. The Flex is ALWAYS going to be quicker... its simply more powerful/faster, thus it breaks down products faster, cutting time down. Here again though is the crux of the situation - the Flex is fixed on backing plate size... if for example you knew that all that was needed to 'refresh' your finish was a pass or 2 of the white pad with Fine Machine Polish... the flex isn't going to get into those tight spaces... so the PC might take a little more time to work the product, but you will be able to address the entire vehicle with 1 machine and maybe 2 pad sizes. The flex will work the product quicker but you'll need to break out the PC anyways w/ a small pad to address the tight spots the flex didn't hit.

So you're looking at likely having the PC out either way... you can hit all the big areas with the Flex, go back with the PC+4" pads or hit the care with the PC and a larger pad, swap plates and hit the tight spots with the small pads.

Really theres not a right or wrong... its gonna come down more to how much correction is needed and what works best for you in an efficient manner.

[Dr Jkel]

Thanks Dylan, makes more sense now. The big areas like the hood and roof and maybe the trunk would be good for the flex, flex will be great on my truck, but the more smallet areas will be better for the PC and maybe the 4" pads

One last question on the 4" pads, what speed do you use the 4" pads on with the PC?

[Todd@properautocare.com]

Originally Posted by JB @ C and L Machine

Been reading up on the flex...seems to be a better choice over the PC

any thoughts?

http://www.autopia.org/forum/search.php?searchid=395100

The first thing to address would be that the PC (and it's popular varients) is a different type of machine than the Flex.

Both machines are Dual-Action (that is they move the backing plate in both a rotating and oscillating motion) but the PC would be classified as a Random Orbital. It should really be called a Random Rotational as the orbit itself is fixed and the rotation (spinning action) of the backing plate is caused by the centrifugal force of the orbital motion.

This means that the orbital motion and rotational motion most naturally occur in the same direction and the pad will not walk across the paint. This also gives the user more flexiablity as they can control pattern the machine is creating by altering pressure and pad size. The Porter Cable is the safest machine and it is very easy to control, however it does (IMO) require a bit more experience to use it its fullest potential (because the orbit-rotation ration and exact pattern created by the ration is controlled by the user).

What makes Random Orbital Polishers so cool is that beginning enthusiast can pick one up and start polishing their paint with fairly good results right away. However, become of the complex dynamics of the machine, there is plenty of room to grow in skill as you progress along. Modern compounds such as Meguiar's M105 Ultra Cut Compound have really allowed users of Random Orbital Polishers to achieve large amounts of paint correction once thought to be reserved only for rotary users.


The Flex, on the other hand, is a type of Dual-Action polisher known as a Forced Rotation Polisher. Unlike the Random Orbital (where the backing plate spins freely on a bearing) the Forced Rotational Polisher uses a gear drive that forces the backing plate to spin at a fixed rate relative to the orbital speed (in the case of the Flex it was always orbit 10 times per rotation) and its pattern is always the same.

Since the operator cannot manipulate the ratio, the only thing for the user to control (besides material selection) is the speed and pressure. Forced Rotational Polishers are not as safe as Random Orbital's but they allow the first time user to achieve near maximal results from the first time out (because there is less to control). Also because the backing plates rotation is gear driven the oscillating and rotational movements are actually opposite of each other. This gives the Flex an inverse pattern.



In most (not all!) cases the Flex is going to offer increased polishing power, simply because it can move the pad across the paint faster under pressure, and thus create more friction (and polishing potential). However in certain circumstances the Porter Cable can actually create equal, if not more polishing power if used to its absolute highest potential.

As far as finishing ability, at the highest level, the Porter Cable (Random Orbital Polishers) could potenitally leave a finer finish. This again is because the pattern the machine creates is ultimately controlled by the user (slowing the orbital speed down while maintaining constant pressure on the pad will cause the machine to create a more oblong curly-cue stroke across the paint which is ideal when creating truly flawless paint), but in most cases, and with most skill levels the finish will be near identical.

I own several Random Orbital Polishers (A couple of PC's, a PC XP, a Meguiar's G110v2) and have used a host of others. Out of the bunch I really like the Meguiar's G110v2, because it is smoother than the Porter Cable and vibrates less (while having equal power). A BIG PLUS for the Meguiar's G110v2 is how precise the power dial is, it is very linear and gives the most exact control over speed; with the other machines some speeds have large gaps (example speed 6 feels twice as fast as speed 5).

I also own two Flex DA's, and a ton of rotary polishers. If I could only bring two with me it would be the Makita 9227c Rotary and the Meguiar's G110v2 polisher.

When selecting pads for you G110v2 (or Porter Cable) keep in mind that both a smaller diameter and a lower height pad will increase the polishing power of the machine. I like to use thin (7/8th inch thick) 5.5 inch diameter Lake Country H20 pads in combination with Meguiar's M105 Ultra Cut Compound for heavy swirl removal and Meguiar's M205 Ultra Finishing Polish (or Menzenrna Super Finish) for my finishing needs.

[Adam's Polishes]

Originally Posted by Dr Jkel

One last question on the 4" pads, what speed do you use the 4" pads on with the PC?

I rarely venture above 4 on the PC w/ 4" pads. The small pad combined with the throw of the machine more than make up for the lack of speed. Plus for the mostpart the correction in areas like that isn't always that heavy... at least in my experience.