[6spdhyperblue]

Originally Posted by angryBits

No it doesn't void your warranty. Warranty is only voided when proof can be provided that the alteration was the cause of the problem. A tune is a catch-all because everything is affected. However with a throttle body this isn't the case. If there is an engine failure, the techs must provide proof that the cause was from the throttle body. So its not a flat-out void, its a "raised-eyebrow" and investigation. For example if you get rod-knock due to a mfg defect (which happens on these engines) you're still covered.

It's virtually undetectable when installed as it's literally an OEM TB. They'd have to remove the TB to see that it was modified.

You can quickly remove the TM TB and put the original TB back in if there are any warranty claims.
It's impossible to tell it was ever installed.




I drove mine for awhile and then took it off. Not because I was unhappy with it but because I was trying to resolve another issue. The improvement is a trade off. I felt the initial take-off was definitely improved, however the throttle was always more twitchy. Less noticeable at higher speeds. Worth it? I guess it depends how much the initial take-off-lag bothers you. It's definitely worth a try since its got a 30 day guarantee.




You found it!




I agree with this. I find that with a little re-learning it goes away.
On launch for normal take-off I give a tiny pre-over-rev then as it falls a little I depress the clutch and re-apply gas. Almost like double-clutching but with the gas instead of clutch haha. Works for me.

Though since I still have TM TB from my Z06, I'm going to give it another try.

You could hide it but it would technically void it, even in your rod knock example.
Unlikely they would find it, yes

[02fbody35th]

Originally Posted by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports

Well said....the reality is some drivers are simply more in tune with this than others. Especially the more "seasoned enthusiasts" (aka older....LOL) that know how the response of a performance engine should feel like when its dialed in.

In fact I have sold these TB's to guys that actually had an open mind and didn't think they had an issue but were curious and once they tried my throttle body they took the time to get back to me and thank me now realizing all along the car wasn't as responsive and easy to drive as it could have been (with the extra power a welcomed perk).

Also I have probably helped at least two dozen guys already with 2019 model year cars and they all loved it so while I didn't know for a fact the TB was the same part number as a 2018 or older (with all the same issues attached), I was pretty certain it was.

I did my best to explain why the situation exists and find it interesting that some are still of the belief it doesn't really exist.


So as a guy that specializes in airflow as his 9 to 5 job (15 years designing cylinder heads and intake manifolds for AFR and now my own company), I naturally also sell alot of ported TB's.....most replace OEM TB's that had a design out of the box that while far from optimal wasn't nearly as bad as an LT1/LT4 unit. LSA engines.....LS3 engines.....LS7 engines.....all of these pick up nicely from a ported TB but a properly ported LT1/LT4 unit isn't just a slightly better flowing TB.....its flows alot more as in 15-20% or so (1000 CFM versus 850 CFM) but more importantly it cures a problem inherent in its design specifically related to the lower throttle positions making the throttle so much easier to modulate with the dramatically improved housing bore shape (once again I ask you simply look at what your removing compared to what your installing....the improvements in the design of my ported unit is painfully obvious)

If your in for more of the "science and the hard numbers" this is a great thread I posted a year or two back with actual results from the flowbench comparing my TB to a stock unit and a competitor's product thrown in the mix as well to show the difference one vendor to the next can provide also

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=502504

That testing posted above is a good read and it took me awhile to build the fixturing/base stand required to pull it off but I wanted the hard data to be able to share, not to mention was very curious about the numbers myself.

-Tony

www.mamomotorsports.com

For thousands of years people believed the earth was flat. It wasn’t until man went into space and provided evidence of a circle earth that people accepted the truth. And then there are others who still don’t believe lol

[jjgi5150]

Originally Posted by Johnjan

I've posted a couple of times about the annoying off idle bogging and stalling on my '18 M6. The dealership even acknowledged that it's not right. However, after a day of diagnoses and troubleshooting guidance from GM, they couldn't find any actionable repair.

I'm happy to say that simply installing a Tony Mamo ported throttle body has all but cured the problem. If on a scale of 1-10, if my car was a 5 because of this and a perfect fix would have been a 10, I'd say that with the new throttle body my car is now a solid 9.

So, for guys that are not happy with the off idle performance of their M6 cars, try a ported throttle body. The improvement on my car was very noticeable.

Originally Posted by mlee

It absolutely voids warranty... the burden of proof lies with you and the legal process would cost you way more than it's worth.

Everything else you mentioned is spot on. My #1 concern purchasing the 19 was this issue and I was relieved to report I can't even make it stumble if I tried.

Hi all,

As most have indicated, the irritating off-idle stumble that is present with some 18's is definitely there, and in many cases it can be a dangerous issue, such as stalling in a busy intersection with stupid ass drivers in a big hurry behind you. Several persons have taken this issue to their dealers and have not received any cure. If some have, I have not heard or read about it. I for one do not wish to go through a lot of back and forth with any dealers, having techs drive my car around, then dealing with GM area reps or complaint hot lines or customer care or whatever.

I believe GM is very aware of this issue, and opted not to issue any fix, since it would cost them quite a few bucks. I feel the software programing is the primary issue. The issue in MY car is very specifically an occasional off-idle stumble, which revs the motor (ON IT'S OWN) from a low idle, as I begin to give it gas and release the clutch, to a 1600-1800 rpm quick rev, then a drop to either a stall or back to a low idle. This, of course, jerks the car around, and causes the erratic starts from a dead stop. My motor is completely stock other than a drop-in Green filter, which I did for re-usability over stock paper.

I have never spoken with Tony, but I did research him, and he seems to be a lot more legit than many internet vendors out there. There have been many, many persons on this and the corvette forums that have gotten benefits from his work. I really don't care if the TM TB flows a million more CFM's to the engine, as long is it helps with the stupid off-idle bog/rev/dip/stumble or whatever anyone wants to call it. Again, I AM NOT talking about a drag race clutch dump. I get it if the software was indeed set to reduce timing to try and save the drive train from shock damage. Even that is kind of a self serving issue for GM. They sell a car they offer as a track ready unit, covered by factory warranty, but then limit it by software so they can avoid drive train warranty repair. A complete antithesis.

There may be some other mechanical issue, but I sure haven't found it. The car runs great in all other aspects, and it's a car I want to keep as my last "fun ride" in my retirement. If the TM TB will help with my issue, by a mechanical means to sidestep a software issue, I feel it's worth a try. If it doesn't work for me, I'm sure Tony will take it back and refund my money.

I have no definitive proof that the issue is caused by software or by a poorly designed or selected TB, but either way, the price to try Tony's fix, with a guarantee refund, is at least worth a try. So many folks with the ZLE or M6 cars have indicated an improvement. I'm really glad to her that MLEE's '19 ZLE has not got this issue. Maybe the GM folks listened or read stories on here about this. I sincerely believe that the only way GM will ever offer to fix this issue is through a Class Action lawsuit. If anyone with an '18 has received a fix from GM about this issue, please jump in and advise your details.


JJ

[mlee]

Originally Posted by jjgi5150

Hi all,

As most have indicated, the irritating off-idle stumble that is present with some 18's is definitely there...

Wholeheartedly agree with your comments and hope it works for you.

I hope to ask my contacts about this stuff and see what I get in return.

[jjgi5150]

Originally Posted by mlee

Wholeheartedly agree with your comments and hope it works for you.

I hope to ask my contacts about this stuff and see what I get in return.

mlee,

That would be great. I plan on keeping my car stock for it's lifetime, as it's an occasionally driven street car and road-trip bandit for me. However, this is a real issue for me/my car, and it is NOT my clutch driving ability! I want the warranty to remain in place, and it will never see a racetrack, even though I'm sure that would be a blast. I did all my racing and crazy hot-rodding in my earlier days, about 50 years ago!

It would be very nice to see what GM might really say about this. I lost all respect for Al O with his "It's our fault" comments. As I said many times, I'd bet my retirement income that the GM test mules at Nurburgring were not running the same software that went into our production cars.

If a software fix was done in the '19's, it seems a pretty simple plug and play install for the earlier 18's. But I still think GM will not offer to fix it unless they are forced to. They have no financial incentive to do so, and these are such a low volume car in total production numbers. Also, they seem to be in trouble as is financially with worker layoffs and the current market status.

I won't hold my breath for a GM fix......


JJ

[DangerZL1]

It would be interesting to compare the 19 and 18 tunes in the cars and see if there are any parameters that have changed??

The fix has to be in the tuning, but as mentioned, GM won't voluntarily do it.

[Alain]

Maybe Ted Jannetty will get involved in this and compare a 2018 tune to the 2019 tune. I’ll ask him in his other thread.

[jjgi5150]

Originally Posted by Alain

Maybe Ted Jannetty will get involved in this and compare a 2018 tune to the 2019 tune. I’ll ask him in his other thread.

This would be a great thing if if does show a difference. It may give the '18 owners a fighting chance with GM to get a re-flash done if it show to be a software matter, as most suspect.



Please keep us informed....


JJ

[VAZL1]

Originally Posted by jjgi5150

Since you've quoted me, what makes you think l don't know how to drive the car? I've been driving manual trannys without issue for over 40 years. I've owned the car for almost a year. You've never been in my vehicle to see what happens with this issue in my case. You don't know my driving ability. You certainly don't know what might prompt me to a level of "overblown hysteria." I don't know you, and would never choose to indicate you need to "learn" something, unless we were close friends or associates.

This forum is here to share about issues with these cars, and l appreciate everyones input, but what do you know about MY SPECIFIC SITUATION? I HAVE this issue with MY car, and it's not my driving technique. I'm really glad if you don't have it, and l hope you never do. If the TM TB helps eliminate this issue for me, good. If not, l'll for sure take him up on his return policy.

I'm not trying to be overly sensitive, but l certainly don't think that l, and also many, many others, are buying something in "overblown hysteria." Have a happy New Year and continued good luck with your ZL1.


JJ

Wasnt trying to offend you. Try a ported TB, I'm sure you won't be disappointed. My suggestion would be Katech

[angryBits]

Originally Posted by mlee

It absolutely voids warranty... the burden of proof lies with you and the legal process would cost you way more than it's worth.

Everything else you mentioned is spot on.

You're right about the legal process, however most of the time it won't go that far if the issue is truly not related.

Regarding the voided warranty, read the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act - Limitations Section: "The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance."

There is a lot of room for interpretation here but when proof cannot be attained, people often win. A Warranter can't just claim "unreasonable use" and call it a day. They will tell you they can to make you feel hopeless but its not true -- they must provide proof and that means lots of time investigating.

For this reason, when a failure is unlikely to be related to a modification the dealership will first claim: "Voided Warranty", then you mention "burden of proof", then they mention "legal process" and that is supposed to scare you away, then you mention "Magnuson Moss Warranty Act - I've been through this before, I have an excellent lawyer". They go "Oh poop" and then it becomes a recommendation from the dealership which generally is based on "how likely is this to be related". If they really think its BS they'll call in GM and its time to lawyer up. However I guarantee you that a rod knock caused by catch can will not go that far because GM would be out lawyer fees. People win these all the time.

It usually doesn't reach legal action because GM doesn't want negative publicity, especially if the warranty claim is likely a defect -- AKA: others have made a similar claim without any mods.

The legal action is mostly scare tactics or used to protect GM when people are obviously falsely trying to blame a blown engine on manufacturer defect.

[VAZL1]

Originally Posted by Alain

Maybe Ted Jannetty will get involved in this and compare a 2018 tune to the 2019 tune. I’ll ask him in his other thread.

That's an excellent idea..

[SJFGTO]

FWIW, my family members have been Chevrolet dealers for decades. GM often does not fully reimburse dealers for warranty work, so there is a financial incentive for some dealers not to accept warranty work if there is an aftermarket part on the vehicle. It becomes dealer discretion as to whether to accept the work and the vast majority of people will not fight it if the dealer refuses. GM often backs the dealer (not always but often) if the customer complains. Even then, the dealer does not have to accept GM's finding. As far as lawyers and publicity, do you think GM worries about that? They make book keeping errors bigger than the cost it takes to fight a warranty challenge. Publicity? Really??? Not a chance. Yes, it is possible to convince GM to authorize warranty work and a dealer to perform the same on a modified vehicle, but it may not be nearly as easy as you seem to suggest.
If you are going to modify your engine, first accept the fact that, in the real world, you may lose warranty protection....and the more you mod, the more likely stuff will break and the more likely you are to be without your warranty. Not a reason not to mod, heck, my warranty is long gone. But be realistic up front before you do....and that oughta start with a TB.

[mlee]

Originally Posted by angryBits

You're right about the legal process, however most of the time it won't go that far if the issue is truly not related.

We've been down this road so many times on this forum I can't even count. I've tried to go to bat and help out for denied claims and got a very stern warning that went like. "If you guys mod anything at all from stock your drive train warranty is voided, period, exclamation point"

This one went straight to CEO Mary Barra and then back down the chain over a simple catch can only mod. This person needed his warranty so did not mod other than the catch can and got bit by the dreaded oil pump failure that many LS3s experienced. Don't drink the M v M koolaid... it means nothing to us little guys.

Originally Posted by VAZL1

That's an excellent idea..

Originally Posted by SJFGTO

FWIW, my family members have been Chevrolet dealers for decades. GM often does not fully reimburse dealers for warranty work, so there is a financial incentive for some dealers not to accept warranty work if there is an aftermarket part on the vehicle. It becomes dealer discretion as to whether to accept the work and the vast majority of people will not fight it if the dealer refuses. GM often backs the dealer (not always but often) if the customer complains. Even then, the dealer does not have to accept GM's finding. As far as lawyers and publicity, do you think GM worries about that? They make book keeping errors bigger than the cost it takes to fight a warranty challenge. Publicity? Really??? Not a chance. Yes, it is possible to convince GM to authorize warranty work and a dealer to perform the same on a modified vehicle, but it may not be nearly easy as you seem to suggest.
If you are going to modify your engine, first accept the fact that, in the real world, you may lose warranty protection....and the more you mod, the more likely stuff is likely to break and the more likely you are to be without your warranty. Not a reason not to mod, heck, my warranty is long gone. But be realistic up front before you do....and that oughta start with a TB.

[msawyer110]

I have had my 17 M6 since day one. Never noticed any real hesitation. Maybe some if i dumped it from a stop, but honestly for me it is a complete non issue.