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Old 01-19-2010, 10:59 PM   #1
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Pfadt Poly Differential Mounts Installed

Decided to install bushings myself, so here's some tips and lessons learned........


FYI: Post #56 shows pics and video of a tool that makes this MUCH easier. No need to remove diff or pull CV shafts!
Mtcwby may start an new thread using this tool or add to this...... will post link if new thread.


1) The bushings can't be pressed out.... definitely "one use bushings" (even Pfadt drilled the stock ones out)
2) Differential has to be removed, 1st attempted on car with home engineered bushing press tool (NOT POSSIBLE IMO....not enough edges)
3) After drilling out rubber core, cutting 2 partial grooves in remaining sleeve aids in removal by using air hammer bit to peel up groove until it releases (yes... must use or take differential to someone who does for this part - MUCH EASIER)
4) New Pfadt bushings install easily with rubber mallot and special white synthetic grease needs to be applied to center anodized aluminum and reinstalled (grease not supplied, but ask for from Pfadt or Brandon at IPS Motorsports - I purchased full 14 oz tube from Spohn for $15 and $10 shipping)
5) Will also post torque specs later...... don't forget blue loctite for other suspension bolts and T-55 Torx attachment
6) Takes about 8-10 hrs if all tools available, and 1 hour/$60 at local 4x4 shop with my help for bushing removal (in retrospec - I had all the air tools to do myself already but pressed for time)

FACTORY BUSHINGS DEFINITLEY HAVE LOTS OF MOVEMENT! Pfadt's tightened everything up great with absolutely no negative side affects such as noise or vibration..... hooks up noticeably better, although I also had previously installed BMR trailing arms and road tested before this (Pfadt's look good, but BMR's seemed easier w/o the welding).

Getting rid of the extra rear end slop should lessen possibility of driveline damage due to wheel hop. Also hoping that by keeping the front nose of the differential case from rolling under hard acceleration, maybe the rear driveshaft bolts will survive better too.

Sooo..... 1st picture shows what I got myself into:
Attached Images
             
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Last edited by Blue70SS; 02-07-2010 at 03:36 PM. Reason: cleaned up directions/pictures
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Old 01-19-2010, 11:00 PM   #2
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REAR SUSPENSION TORQUE SPECS as of 7/26/09 (found in suspension threads from DMS)
COMPONENT TORQUE SI documents 1st 2nd 2201676
4 Strut Mount to Body Bolts 43lbft 2198520
Strut to Strut Mount Nut 33lbft 2201630
Strut to lower Control Arm 59lbft 120 degrees 2196808
Lower Control Arm Inner Bushing at Adjuster 85LBFT 2198520
Lower Control Arm at Knuckle Assembly 30lbft 120 degrees 2198520
Upper Control Arm Rear Bolt to Bushing 37lbft 120 degrees 2201388
Upper Control Arm Rear Bushing Bracket Bolts 59lbft 120 degrees 2201388
Upper Control Arm Pivot Joint 59lbft 120 degrees 2198520
Upper Control Arm to Knuckle Assembly 44LBFT 90 degrees 2198520
Toe Link inner to Subframe Adjuster 85LBFT 2196934
Toe Link to Knuckle Assembly Bolt 103 lbft 2196934
Trailing Arm to Subframe Assembly (Inner) 74lbft 2197112
Trailing Arm to Knuckle Asembly 30lbft 120 degrees 2197112
Front Cradle(Subframe) Bolts to Body 74lbft 120 degrees 2198520
Rear Cradle (Subframe) Bolts to Body 74lbft 120 degrees 2198520
Front Differential Bushings 59lbft 2213853
Rear Differential bushings 59lbft 2213853
Driveshaft to Differential 85LBFT 2198520
Caliper Bracket to Knuckle Assembly (L99, LS3) 30lbft 90 degrees 2210668
Caliper Bracket to Knuckle Assembly (LLT) 30lbft 90 degrees 2210668
Rear Sway Bar End link Nuts 36lbft 2196718
Sway bar Bushing Bracket bolts 16lbft 2196709
Nut for CV shaft to Knuckle...... 199lbft/270nm (per 2 different Chevy dealers 1/21/10)
...One dealer said just use air tool and "hammer it on", other one stated their manual shows it a one use nut (end is crimped). Won't matter in my case - shafts being replaced at LPE and will get new nut
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Last edited by Blue70SS; 02-07-2010 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 01-19-2010, 11:20 PM   #3
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Old 01-19-2010, 11:29 PM   #4
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YIKES! it scares me what it will be like to change the gears now!
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue70SS View Post
Decided to install bushings myself, so here's some tips and lessons learned........

1) The bushings can't be pressed out.... definitely "one use bushings" (even Pfadt drilled the stock ones out)
2) Differential has to be removed, 1st attempted on car with home engineered bushing press tool (NOT POSSIBLE IMO....not enough edges)
3) After drilling out rubber core, cutting 2 partial grooves in remaining sleeve aids in removal by using air hammer bit to peel up groove until it releases (yes... must use or take differential to someone who does for this part - MUCH EASIER)
4) New Pfadt bushings install easily with rubber mallot and special white synthetic grease needs to be applied to center anodized aluminum and reinstalled (grease not supplied, but ask for from Pfadt or Brandon at IPS Motorsports - I purchased full 14 oz tube from Spohn for $15 and $10 shipping)
5) Will also post torque specs later...... don't forget blue loctite for other suspension bolts and T-55 Torx attachment
6) Takes about 8-10 hrs if all tools available, and 1 hour/$60 at local 4x4 shop with my help for bushing removal (in retrospec - I had all the air tools to do myself already but pressed for time)

FACTORY BUSHINGS DEFINITLEY HAVE LOTS OF MOVEMENT! Pfadt's tightened everything up great with absolutely no negative side affects such as noise or vibration..... hooks up noticeably better, although I also had previously installed BMR trailing arms and road tested before this (Pfadt's look good, but BMR's seemed easier w/o the welding)

Excuse the readability..... 1st thread - still learning what works best!

Sooo..... 1st picture shows what I got myself into:
Thanks for the great writeup! I have a bunch of photos that are nearly identical on my hard drive right now. I am integrating those into comprehensive instructions currently.

We use the same technique that you describe to install these. I have found it a little easier to cut the bushing centers out with a sawzall rather than a hole saw, but it accomplishes the same thing.

I have some before and after video that I am editing also. Stay tuned for that . It is a big change in movement from the stock bushings to the Pfadt poly.

Thanks again for posting.

-Aaron
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Pfadt View Post
Thanks for the great writeup! I have a bunch of photos that are nearly identical on my hard drive right now. I am integrating those into comprehensive instructions currently.

We use the same technique that you describe to install these. I have found it a little easier to cut the bushing centers out with a sawzall rather than a hole saw, but it accomplishes the same thing.

I have some before and after video that I am editing also. Stay tuned for that . It is a big change in movement from the stock bushings to the Pfadt poly.

Thanks again for posting.

-Aaron
Good timing.... was just starting to send link your way and to Brandon at IPS! I'm sure your version will look much more professional like your other instructions. Looking forward to recieving your coilovers soon - will probably install after LPE, followed by control arm bushing kit. Trying to do only one kit per install before each assessment. Sway bars work great BTW!
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:38 PM   #7
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wow.

would be a great upgrade if you were pulling the rear to install gears anyway.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:02 PM   #8
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Yes... these 3 bushings are a Pain in the ass.

Glad I already did mine...

Nice walkthrough by the way...
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:07 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 570hp-lpe View Post
Yes... these 3 bushings are a Pain in the ass.

Glad I already did mine...

Nice walkthrough by the way...

Thanks 570 - did you tackle job yourself, or LPE?
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Old 01-20-2010, 02:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 570hp-lpe View Post
Yes... these 3 bushings are a Pain in the ass.

Glad I already did mine...

Nice walkthrough by the way...
No kidding! I understand why OP did it that way, but looks like a good time to drop the cradle and do them all at once. Yes? No?
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Old 01-20-2010, 03:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
No kidding! I understand why OP did it that way, but looks like a good time to drop the cradle and do them all at once. Yes? No?
Other bushings not recieved yet, but doing all at once would definitely save time. Although, I'm curious to see how each component performs as their added. I already had installed Pfadt's sway bars and BMR's trailing arms at the same time and suspected a rough ride from sway bars. Ended up being the stock bushings on the BMR control arms binding at the knuckle mixed with cold hard tires - would have caught instantly if done in stages. Next up is Pfadt's coilovers, followed by Pfadt's 16 piece control arm bushing package (yep.... doing separate and possibly 2 alignments).

LPE package - now that comes all at once!

(but with Pfadt's engine mounts - so again can analyze)
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Old 01-20-2010, 03:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue70SS View Post
Other bushings not recieved yet, but doing all at once would definitely save time. Although, I'm curious to see how each component performs as their added. I already had installed Pfadt's sway bars and BMR's trailing arms at the same time and suspected a rough ride from sway bars. Ended up being the stock bushings on the BMR control arms binding at the knuckle mixed with cold hard tires - would have caught instantly if done in stages. Next up is Pfadt's coilovers, followed by Pfadt's 16 piece control arm bushing package (yep.... doing separate and possibly 2 alignments).

LPE package - now that comes all at once!

(but with Pfadt's engine mounts - so again can analyze)
Sounds like a good plan...If it was done all at once you might still be looking for the culprit. Are more DIY's coming?
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Old 01-20-2010, 06:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
Sounds like a good plan...If it was done all at once you might still be looking for the culprit. Are more DIY's coming?
Probably not till after LPE.... transport arrives next Wednesday!
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:10 PM   #14
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Looks like a bitch of an install.

Aaron can you tell me what benefits we can see from this? Would you only suggest this for very high horespower cars?

Curious to hear what these do and if they make a noticeable driving change.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:17 PM   #15
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Aaron can you tell me what benefits we can see from this? Would you only suggest this for very high horespower cars?

Curious to hear what these do and if they make a noticeable driving change.

We have Darrells Diff sitting on the work bench awaiting Richmonds install kit. If this is going to be a Noticeable difference, Ill suggest these to him. Plus he will save some coin since we already have the diff out.
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Old 01-21-2010, 01:20 AM   #16
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Can't speak for Aaron, but I believe Pedders was recomending bushings be solid poly bushings above 500 RWHP. I was able to easily twist differential around by hand with stock bushings in place which all adds to wheel hop. Can't imagine what 580 RWHP would do... wouldn't be pretty & probably costly. I know one guy ripped his gas tanks up bad - cradle supposedly has to be dropped to replace the tank too. Pfadt's looks like a better design IMO, unless your partial to red bushings.
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:10 AM   #17
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Great job on this writeup!. However, your 8-10 hours is a little much. Doing the bushings for us and a Pedders dealer is a hour job. I have done quite a bit of them and 1 hour is plenty of time. We do not remove the diff from the subframe. We have developed a puller set. We use a 1/2 inch acme thread, which requires drilling out the center mounting hole just a little. We have a matching sized push plate and a reciever that the bushing will go into. Here is a link that shows you how to do it.


The diff mount bushings are critical bushings to help transfer torque more efficiently.

Now the link also shows an experimental process I did eliminating the engineered voids and it works. With our testing, we have found using bushings with engineered voids will put less shock on the diff and works well up to about 450hp at the ground. But guys running high hp, especially with drag radials, the diff needs far more support. So we have a harder dura, solid bushing that is good to over 900hp.

Aaron, if you would like info on this tool, just email me.


This was not meant to hijack this thread by no means. Aaron if it is, just email me and I will delete it.

thanks
mike
dms

Last edited by Info@PeddersUSA.com; 01-21-2010 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:03 AM   #18
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Mike, I think any info that makes this an easier job is good info.... But I'm not the OP. His call.

Can the tool be used for cradle bushings also?
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Old 01-21-2010, 09:58 AM   #19
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Nice write up Garth, and Im glad to hear the feedback!

Mike, we have a made an inhouse tool similar to what your describing to install the bushings in a more efficent manner. But this method works the same, just takes more time. Fortunatly there are 15 different ways to accomplish this install, and they are all correct, because in the end your have improved your Camaro with quality Pfadt bushings, and junked the stock rubber.

Again nice write up Garth I look forward to more feedback once I get you your coilovers, and control arm bushings!

Regards
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:11 AM   #20
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this sounds easy loll
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:23 AM   #21
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I had actually started this whole process by making a replica of this removal tool. MTCWBY found it in the G8 forums. The link Mike has was my printed intructions exactly..... states 2-3 hours for replacement and originated from the G8 forums. My estimated time and his in the instructions would be a "first timer" install..... professionals much quicker than mine on jack stands and me trying to keep the new floor in good condition. I determined the front 2 bushings couldn't be done this way and figured the G8 must be a slightly different case. The case casting is definitely different in the Camaro vs the tool intructions. Also the instructions have a picture of the rear bushing with the tool attached, which would be the easiest removal. This tool idea seemed great, just didn't work out. Maybe someone else will have a better solution.

Pictures give more info and shows the larger flanged side that has to be pulled out.
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Last edited by Blue70SS; 01-21-2010 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:37 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffny09 View Post
this sounds easy loll
That's actually what I thought too - while I was making my tool to save a few bucks!
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boosted LPE Twin Pump,GT9,Coil Covers,Mats,Pedals/ADM Gauges,Race Scoop/Trunions
DDS CVs,Carbon F DS/RPM L6/LPE 9.5 3.73/Pedders HD bushes,align kit
RB 2-piece rotors,S/S Lines,Hawk HPE Pads/Forgeline SP3P/Weld RTS
Ceramic ARH 2" LT/3" X-pipe,Corsa Touring/BMR TA,Toe,LCA,DS Loop
StreetSlayer BC3/MTI Shifter-Trans mt/Hotchkis CB/Monster CC/SJM LineLock
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:54 AM   #23
Aaron Pfadt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 55designs
Looks like a bitch of an install.

Aaron can you tell me what benefits we can see from this? Would you only suggest this for very high horespower cars?

Curious to hear what these do and if they make a noticeable driving change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwkss View Post

We have Darrells Diff sitting on the work bench awaiting Richmonds install kit. If this is going to be a Noticeable difference, Ill suggest these to him. Plus he will save some coin since we already have the diff out.
These are definitely a benefit for the higher HP cars, but they have benefits for any car that is being launched hard. As others have pointed out, the stock mounts are very soft. This modification will keep away some of the dreaded 'wheel hop' which tears pieces up in the drivetrain.

The interesting thing, is that there is almost no noticeable effects while driving. There is no noise or vibration, everything is just held tighter and more happy.

These are an involved install, so if you have limited experience, I suggest taking this project to a shop. There are some specialized tools required and general heavy lifting.

Like I mentioned, I'm working up some video that illustrates this. Stay tuned.

-Aaron
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:04 AM   #24
Aaron Pfadt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dms View Post
Great job on this writeup!. However, your 8-10 hours is a little much. Doing the bushings for us and a Pedders dealer is a hour job. I have done quite a bit of them and 1 hour is plenty of time. We do not remove the diff from the subframe. We have developed a puller set. We use a 1/2 inch acme thread, which requires drilling out the center mounting hole just a little. We have a matching sized push plate and a reciever that the bushing will go into. Here is a link that shows you how to do it.


The diff mount bushings are critical bushings to help transfer torque more efficiently.

Now the link also shows an experimental process I did eliminating the engineered voids and it works. With our testing, we have found using bushings with engineered voids will put less shock on the diff and works well up to about 450hp at the ground. But guys running high hp, especially with drag radials, the diff needs far more support. So we have a harder dura, solid bushing that is good to over 900hp.

Aaron, if you would like info on this tool, just email me.


This was not meant to hijack this thread by no means. Aaron if it is, just email me and I will delete it.

thanks
mike
dms
No problem Mike. That is good information. Unfortunately, I do not think you can use a tool like this on both front bushings for the Camaro. The casting is different enough on the Camaro that the tool would interfere with case on the one side. I looked at making exactly such a tool and decided that it would not work. I'll check again with the CAD models, it would be a simple piece and would be useful for our shops and some DIY guys.

If you could do this without complete removal of the diff, you could save hours.

Even with diff removal, I think 4 or 5 hours is enough time.

-Aaron
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:47 PM   #25
Info@PeddersUSA.com
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
Mike, I think any info that makes this an easier job is good info.... But I'm not the OP. His call.

Can the tool be used for cradle bushings also?
No. We do have a tool for the cradle bushings as well. The size of the subframe bushings is substantially larger than the diff bushings.

But we have an alternative method that takes 5-10 minutes a bushing as well.

mike
dms
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