Motor Trend Head to Head: 2015 Camaro 1LE vs. new 2015 Mustang 5.0 GT PP

[gajagfan]

Originally Posted by GONIF

My bad 13 to 15 MPG ,and I don't care about MPG.

Just having fun.......

[GONIF]

Originally Posted by gajagfan

Just having fun.......

Figured that . I guess what I want is the best of the best at a bargain price. I know Damn well GM could deliver ,if they wanted . Oh , I just found this ------- The "Coyote"= 430 lbs Source About.com-Mustangs

The LS3= 448 lbs Source,GM Camaro homepage.com
Now What ? Bet you guys didn't know this ,I didn't .

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

This would mean the 1LE is a serious track package and the PP is for posers.

How so?

The 1LE is a track package. So is the Mustang PP. The 1LE is better but that doesn't make the Mustang a poser, just not as good.

If there are two of anything one is always going to be better and one is always not.

Besides... what percentage of 1LE owners do you think have actually ever tracked their car? I would guess, generously, 10%. So are 1LE owners who haven't tracked their car posers for owning one?

[X25]

Originally Posted by GONIF

Nice Bike much faster then I could handle these days . My last bike a 996 Duck nearly killed me . Now we agree ,the Camaro is better looking ,handles better and is a better car all around . But the Camaro could be so much more if GM would only push the envelope . It piss's me off that GM did not put the LT engine in the 2014 and 2015 Camaro . They are good but need to step up . No one wants to be slower than a Ford in the 1/4. Believe it or not a 346 with 4 valves per cylinder and DOHC could make 500 RWHP without a problem. So what if it weighs 30 to 50lbs more and is 2 inches wider.

Originally Posted by GONIF

What I have is a paid for 1LE ,soon to be a 2016 C7 . My bad 13 to 15 MPG ,and I don't care about MPG.

Yeah, I will sell the ZX-10R; I'm being a bad example to my daughters : )

I think you would need retooling, etc. to adapt the LT1 engine to Gen 5 Camaro, so it was probably not feasible. I'm sure the next gen will have those engines. I've heard Car & Driver has grenaded the engine of their C7 Z51, though; I hope it's an isolated case.

If for the street only, regular C7 is a great car; no need to get C7 Z51 if you will not go to track with it. The C7s are easier to negotiate than C7 Z51s due to production constraints.

[gajagfan]

Originally Posted by GONIF

Figured that . I guess what I want is the best of the best at a bargain price. I know Damn well GM could deliver ,if they wanted . Oh , I just found this ------- The "Coyote"= 430 lbs Source About.com-Mustangs

The LS3= 448 lbs Source,GM Camaro homepage.com
Now What ?

I do think the package size (cubic feet) is larger with the ford engine, but would love to know.

[X25]

Originally Posted by gajagfan

I do think the package size (cubic feet) is larger with the ford engine, but would love to know.

I was at an exhaust shop yesterday, and the guy was telling me how cramped the engine bay is on Mustangs, which apparently makes it hard to install headers.

[GONIF]

Coyote engine is 29.05 inches wide . can't find the width of the LS3

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by GONIF

Coyote engine is 29.05 inches wide . can't find the width of the LS3

You could go out and measure yours...

[GONIF]

Originally Posted by Angrybird 12

You could go out and measure yours...

Can't ,drove the 2005 Chevy 2500hd Duramax 4x4 today to service it ,all fluids to be changed . It's up on the lift now draining the front diff. Going out to the desert Sunday to shoot Coyotes with my Sig 716p to try out the Hipertouch 24c trigger I just installed .

[gajagfan]

Originally Posted by GONIF

Coyote engine is 29.05 inches wide . can't find the width of the LS3

I think height might be an issue too....

[Billy10mm]

Originally Posted by GONIF

FYI 458 Italia is a direct-injected 4.5-liter DOHC V8 cranks out 562 horsepower at 9,000 rpm (125 horsepower per liter, a record for naturally-aspirated piston engines). Torque is rated at 398 lb-ft at 6,000 rpm, 80 percent of which is available from 3,250 rpm. So it makes 2.04 hp from 275 cubic inches VS the LS3 that makes 1.13 hp per cubic inch.


HOLD ON THERE , just for the record the GM 3.6 OHC engine is 219.65 cubic inches and makes 320 hp ,that is 1.46 hp per cubic inch. the LS3 OHV is 376 cubic inches and makes 426 hp so it makes 1.13 hp per cubic inch ,the Ford Coyote 5.0 makes 430 hp out of 302 cubic inches ,that is 1.42 hp per cubic inch. I could go on and on but as you can see GM itself knows the deal . Push rod engines are cheaper and easy to build . It's about the $$$$$$$$$$$. Torque at a specific rpm ,the Ferrari wins. It revs higher to make the power but doe's so none the less. Bottom line is a multi valve overhead cam engine is going to make more horsepower per cubic inch. It is more complicated and more expensive ,but will in fact make more HP per cubic inch. Anyone remember the 2.0 Honda S2000 ?

HP is little more than a factor of RPM. Yes, the Ferrari and the Mustang and the S2000 and a ton of other cars all make more HP per cubic inch, but HP doesn't tell the whole story.

If you have a motor that makes 10 ft-lbs of torque and holds that all the way to 8K RPM, you have a motor that makes 15.23HP ( (10 * 8000) / 5252 ). If I have a motor that makes 20 ft-lbs of torque and holds that only to 4K RPM, I also have a motor that makes 15.23HP ( (20 * 4000) / 5252 ). To someone just looking at the horsepower numbers, we will be dead even in a drag race. But the fact is that my motor makes TWICE the twisting force yours does. Mine literally accelerates at double the rate your motor does (assuming same gearing).

Now of course, that's not the entire story either. My motor will redline before yours which means I will either need to shift while you don't, or I will need a taller gear to prevent shifting. And unlike this hypothetical race above, our motors aren't electric. They don't make peak torque all the time. I've driven a 458 and while it does make some incredible power, it is peaky - quite peaky. As with most V8 Ferraris, it needs to be revved quite a bit to push you back into your seat. Even the idle is set over 1K RPM.

Why does this matter? Because the LS3 is used in all kinds of vehicles, most of which are used as daily drivers (as my 1LE is). The prodigious low-end on the LS3 allows GM to put in an absurdly tall 6th gear in my car that means I'm only turning 82MPH at 2K RPM. 82MPH in a 458 is right around 3200 RPM. Ever try holding a conversation in a 458 at 80MPH with the motor right behind your head? The constant RPM in the 458 makes the car feel "busy" for lack of better word. You don't take long, relaxing trips in a 458 like you can in a car with an SBC. The C7 Corvette gets 30 miles to the gallon. My 1LE gets 25 on the highway. I'm getting a consistent 18mpg in mixed driving (40% highway, 60% city). 458s get mid to high teens at low highway speeds (60mph give or take) and single digits in city driving. And the motor in the 458 is about the cost of a well-optioned ZL1. I can get a crated LS3 for about $8K - only about $2K more than the refurbished 4-banger my grandmother had to buy (and then pay $2K to install) when the oil pump in her 1998 Camry had a heart attack.

The point is that peak HP numbers aren't everything. They are a good indication of outright speed, but they're not everything. While the 1LE is a great track pack, these are still street legal cars. I, and most of GM customers, care about the whole package. I like having an inexpensive motor that makes fantastic power and a great sound. I love that my car can pull 4th gear at idle on flat ground. I love that I can rev my car to 2K RPM in 5th gear (54mph) and then shift into 6th and not be lugging the motor. The LS3 is extremely flexible, more flexible than a vast majority of normally aspirate performance engines for sale today. And when you factor price, area under the curve, fuel mileage, and sound ... I wouldn't have this motor any other way.

And the 458 motor, despite being almost 1/3rd smaller in displacement, is heavier and physically larger than the LS3. 308 and 328 Ferraris (similar to what Magnum P.I. used to drive) can be found in good condition for under $35K. People who can afford to buy them often can't afford major engine repair (which can easily exceed the cost of the car due to the astronomical price of Ferrari parts) - so what do they put in their place? Yep, an SBC. Miatas - SBC. Datsun - SBC. Do these people all have it wrong? Are all of these car-guys idiots who should have bought a Coyote?

In November of 2011, Chevy built its 100 millionth small-block since it debuted in 1955. I can't put my finger on it exactly, but I get the feeling they're doing something right.

[Todd in Vancouver]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

I for one do not see the 2015 GT PP as a fail at all. Lots of big improvements and a much better car than it was. If the comparison was just GT to SS the outcome might have been different. The 1LE is a less mainstream car than the GT PP. The ride is rougher and the tires are awful under 60 degrees until they warm up. Also they wear out really fast. And to replace the tires are more expensive than the GT. Ford should have made the GT PP available with the automatic.

The 1LE is aimed at track rats and some new owners that did not really know what they were buying are disappointed with the car.

So for the average buyer the extra capabilities will be accessible to many with the GT PP. Fewer GT PPs will wind up at the track and I would expect Ford will sell more GT PPs than Chevy sells 1LEs.

It sounds like Ford will try to compete against the Z/28 with the GT 350. But I would expect it to be a little less serious too. The Z/28 is EXTREME track. But is makes no sense as a daily driver car. That is what makes it so cool. The GT 350 will not compete with the 1LE.

I am glad I have the car that was considered more fun to drive. It is big fun, even when losing a drag race to a GT.

Agree. Ford has their sights on the GT350 but I'm going to guess their going to put it against the 1LE unless they've really pulled out all the stops. Let's face it the Z/28 is going to be damn near impossible for the GT350 to catch. It beat, well, everyone who brought their A game.

I read recently that GM called the 1LE the 2% car because that's what they felt it appealed to, about 2% of the muscle car buyers are looking to really track their car. Ford sold its soul and screwed over their faithful to make a world car more appealing to overseas buyers and if I was a Mustang fan I'd be pissed too. If GM meets their goal on weight reduction and installs the LT4 in the 6th Gen it may be all over for Ford in the Muscle car arena. It seems to me that Ford does very well overseas with a hopped up Focus so maybe that's the market their after?

It's going to take a lot of car to beat a possible Z06 engine in a new lighter, tighter ZL1 6th Gen Camaro so let the games continue. Unless Ford just quits and goes in a different direction. I'm also guessing that when they actually installed an IRS system in their car they all of a sudden realized why the Camaro got so heavy. It ain't easy.

[cbass]

Originally Posted by GONIF

First off I get 13 to 15 mpg in my LE1 ,it doe's not consume less ,the way I drive it or any other car or truck . The CAGS is a loop hole that GM uses to skirt the gas guzzler tax , lets get real . None of us get's great fuel mileage. Oh and I do get it ,you own a Chevy and think it is best . I own 3 Chevy's ,and know the truth. As I have said I like and Buy GM"s and have since 1968 ,but want them to be better then the rest . And you will see GM rise to the challenge sooner or later.

Maybe you should look into another manufacturer? I personally like my "archaic" pushrod LS3 and have no interest in a DOHC V8. You have many other manufacturers that will sell you that if that is what you want and I can stick with my pushrod V8 because other than it being pushrod it trumps almost all engines in terms of real performance. HP/L to me is irrelevant BS. I look at things that matter like weight, horsepower (not just peak but the entire curve), and size (packaging). Why try to force me to buy something that doesn't make sense to me? There aren't many manufacturers making good pushrod motors. You have plenty making DOHC that you can chose from. Why try to limit my options?

[Billy10mm]

Originally Posted by GONIF

Figured that . I guess what I want is the best of the best at a bargain price. I know Damn well GM could deliver ,if they wanted . Oh , I just found this ------- The "Coyote"= 430 lbs Source About.com-Mustangs

The LS3= 448 lbs Source,GM Camaro homepage.com
Now What ? Bet you guys didn't know this ,I didn't .

4% more weight for 24% more displacement. Um, yes please.