ZL1 VS. SS

[C5RocksC5]

Originally Posted by Bad70supreme

No WAY... How long of a race are we talking, the gt500 won for best lap, but the car fadded away so bad it was stated that the ZL1 would be the race winner because it was able to turn the same times lap after lap, the gt500 was slowing down fast. I would put money on it that the boss would be no different. This hole heat soke crap is an exuse for people that cant drive worth a crap on the strip... I have seen a few run and none of these guys knew what the hell they were doing! I am no expert but am pretty sure I could have ran a half second faster then guys I was watching run!

I am only aware of one magazine test complained about the GT500 brake fade .. butt I don't read all the magazines so I may have missed other reports. A lot of ZL1 dyno and strip runs and reputable shops have already confirmed the inadequate cooling system of the ZL1. You sound like you know your stuff on the strip so you should know, if a car with inadequate cooling system heat soaks on the strip, it will heat soak on the track as well...one lapper will mask the heat soak issue but a full roadcourse race, especially in warm weather, the stock ZL1 will suffer simply because it does not come with adequate SC cooling from the factory. It is easier to change the brake fluid on the GT500 than upgrade the SC cooling system on the ZL1 for roadcourse duties. But seriously, do you know anyone other than Eric at Torq who has run their ZL1 in a roadcourse? The great majority will be running on the straight line and let's face it, I know it sucks for us ZL1 fans, the GT500 simply dominates there. I live in Las Vegas and I am really concerned with the heat soak issue..I fear when I get my ZL1, it will feel like my SS power-wise after a few minutes of driving in 95º+ weather. That would suck!

[Runin11z]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Trim and model designations are essentially marketing devices.

The current Impala has almost no relation to a 1958 Impala or a 1965 396 Super Sport Impala. However, the name Impala invokes distant memories of those classic Impalas for those old enough to remember. The name Impala doesn't make the current Impala what it is. The design of the vehicle makes it what it is.

The ZL1 designation evokes memories of 1960s high performance, be it a Can-Am race, a 9560 COPO Camaro, or a Corvette. That is why it's an appropriate name for a high performance Camaro. However, the name ZL1 doesn't make the car what it is. As I stated, it could be called a Panther and that wouldn't change what it is.

I understand what you are saying... Try to look at it from this perspective if an Impala came out with a Z11 model and didn't live up to the linage of its predecessor you can bet enthusiasts would speak their minds.

The whole "track ready" thing can be interpreted in many ways, to a hardcore racer this thing is far from "track ready", realistically this car wouldn't even cross their mind in the first place. To the average weekend warrior type that isn't really pushing the car to its limits it can easily be mistaken for "track ready". It's an excellent car for the average consumer but for a true car enthusiast it leaves a few bits and peices to be desired, all of which can be addressed by the aftermarket.

My thing was when GM hooked me with the moniker this car carried it was a magical moment and I instantly thought of the 9560 ZL1 equipped 69 Camaro. So maybe you can understand my small let down when my trap mph are on the low side, which I'm sure they will improve a little when some cooler weather hits but they will be no where close to its main competition.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by pdari

... if a car with inadequate cooling system heat soaks on the strip, it will heat soak on the track as well...

Heat soak tends to be more of a problem on the drag strip, where a vehicle sits after hard runs allowing the engine temperature to rise due to lack of cooling and air flow, than on a road course. At speed on a road course the vehicle's cooling system and air flow help keep the engine temperatures in the proper operating range. Simply because a vehicle exhibits heat soak at the drag strip does not mean that the same vehicle will exhibit significant heat soak issues on a road course.

[C5RocksC5]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Heat soak tends to be more of a problem on the drag strip, where a vehicle sits after hard runs allowing the engine temperature to rise due to lack of cooling and air flow, than on a road course. At speed on a road course the vehicle's cooling system and air flow help keep the engine temperatures in the proper operating range. Simply because a vehicle exhibits heat soak at the drag strip does not mean that the same vehicle will exhibit significant heat soak issues on a road course.

I understand what you are saying and I agree for the most part but we are talking about the ZL1 and I think almost everyone can agree that the lack of SC coolant reservoir and undersized heat exhanger combined, not good for long haul racing, any racing. Ford already learned this lesson, look at the GT500's nose, no grill. Learned from the 1st year of Boss reintroduction (2011?), despite not having a SC, suffered heat probs during roadcourse runs. Remember all the flogging the new GT500 took during media day in Road Atlanta? Back to back to back to back 1/4 runs and still ran mid to high 11 sec. Now, Ford would just spend $3 more and use better brake fluid in the Shelby from the factory...

[Bad70supreme]

Originally Posted by pdari

I am only aware of one magazine test complained about the GT500 brake fade .. butt I don't read all the magazines so I may have missed other reports. A lot of ZL1 dyno and strip runs and reputable shops have already confirmed the inadequate cooling system of the ZL1. You sound like you know your stuff on the strip so you should know, if a car with inadequate cooling system heat soaks on the strip, it will heat soak on the track as well...one lapper will mask the heat soak issue but a full roadcourse race, especially in warm weather, the stock ZL1 will suffer simply because it does not come with adequate SC cooling from the factory. It is easier to change the brake fluid on the GT500 than upgrade the SC cooling system on the ZL1 for roadcourse duties. But seriously, do you know anyone other than Eric at Torq who has run their ZL1 in a roadcourse? The great majority will be running on the straight line and let's face it, I know it sucks for us ZL1 fans, the GT500 simply dominates there. I live in Las Vegas and I am really
concerned with the heat soak issue..I fear when I get my ZL1, it will feel like my SS power-wise after a few minutes of driving in 95º+ weather. That would suck!

So your getting a ZL1, let me ask you this... Why are getting a Zl1 and your only form of racing will be strip? I don't know everything but I have been drag racing for 15 years with lots of different cars, personally the 5th gen in general is not a great drag car and the zl1 is probably the worst choice of the 3 models of Camaro in that respect. I say this because the weight of the car is just to much, the supercharger adds nose weight, the hole rear is upgraded but heavier!

I knew of the lacking performance at the stip, but my love of this car makes me deal with the issues and I will mod to get the results I want. If I could buy a new 5th gen now, it would be the 1Le for sure! Your getting the gearing you need, your still at the standard SS weight, your getting a better trans and suspension and better axles! Ultimately I think it's the better bang for the buck, add tires to this car, Boltons and a cam and your going to have a faster lighter car over the Z for less money with none of the standard SS issues.

[classicam]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

The ZL1 designation evokes memories of 1960s high performance, be it a Can-Am race, a 9560 COPO Camaro, or a Corvette. That is why it's an appropriate name for a high performance Camaro. However, the name ZL1 doesn't make the car what it is. As I stated, it could be called a Panther and that wouldn't change what it is.

No it doesn't and this is what you fail to comprehend and keep making nonsense posts about Can-Am and the ENGINES history. The ZL1 invokes one memory to 99.9% of chevy camaro people and its to the legendary ZL1 Camaro. The Camaro made the ZL1 engine legendary not Can-Am racing and only a few would have know about the ZL1 if it never made it into the camaro. It doesn't matter how or what designation code was used to put the engine in the car they are forever married and known to all as a ZL1 camaro. I know what a COPO is and how the ZL1 came to be and GM sure as hell knew what they were marketing when they slapped that name on the side. You cannot see the Forrest because of the trees.

You are trying too convince people that GM believes Camaro enthusiasts don't associate the ZL1 name plate with quarter mile performance and its pure nonsense. What do you think the majority of people thought when chevy announced the return of the ZL1, CAN-AM or Road courses?

GM is notorious for degrading names for the sake of a buck and they took the holy grail ZL1 name too hype and market the car. It seems you now want to redefine the ZL1 name, since it didn't live up to the hype on the current Camaro.

Actually Its the first year run and there is still a possibility that GM can get the heat soak issues worked out and some more tuning on the suspension and we may see quarter mile times drop.

Im done with this

[epkmvuoq]

Big deal about the 69 zl1,,,,,,, I don't really consider it a production car. Only 69 were made, that's not very many !!!!!!

[Blackkaz04]

Originally Posted by classicam

No it doesn't and this is what you fail to comprehend and keep making nonsense posts about Can-Am and the ENGINES history. The ZL1 invokes one memory to 99.9% of chevy camaro people and its to the legendary ZL1 Camaro. The Camaro made the ZL1 engine legendary not Can-Am racing and only a few would have know about the ZL1 if it never made it into the camaro. It doesn't matter how or what designation code was used to put the engine in the car they are forever married and known to all as a ZL1 camaro. I know what a COPO is and how the ZL1 came to be and GM sure as hell knew what they were marketing when they slapped that name on the side. You cannot see the Forrest because of the trees.

You are trying too convince people that GM believes Camaro enthusiasts don't associate the ZL1 name plate with quarter mile performance and its pure nonsense. What do you think the majority of people thought when chevy announced the return of the ZL1, CAN-AM or Road courses?

GM is notorious for degrading names for the sake of a buck and they took the holy grail ZL1 name too hype and market the car. It seems you now want to redefine the ZL1 name, since it didn't live up to the hype on the current Camaro.

Actually Its the first year run and there is still a possibility that GM can get the heat soak issues worked out and some more tuning on the suspension and we may see quarter mile times drop.

Im done with this

Yes!!!!!!!well written. How can one not associate the baddest of the bad gm muscle cars with 1/4 mile performance....!

I was going to spring for a zl1, but the numbers have made me rethink the whole idea.......I'm out until changes are made and times drop.

My 99 z28 ran faster 1/4 mile times than the zl1 with bolt ons and a cam.....it seems like theses high hp numbers are all really just a gm marketing scheme....today's cars are not much faster in a straight line..........

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by classicam

No it doesn't and this is what you fail to comprehend and keep making nonsense posts about Can-Am and the ENGINES history. The ZL1 invokes one memory to 99.9% of chevy camaro people and its to the legendary ZL1 Camaro.

I'd like to see the survey data to support your claim.

There was no Camaro with a trim designation of ZL1 until 2012. The legendary 1969 9560 COPO Camaro was equipped with a ZL1 engine. as the legendary 1969 9561 COPO Camaro was equipped with an L72 engine. Both vehicles were based on SS Camaros.

Originally Posted by classicam

The Camaro made the ZL1 engine legendary not Can-Am racing and only a few would have know about the ZL1 if it never made it into the camaro.

If you were around when the ZL1 engine was developed and used in Cam-Am racing, you probably wouldn't dismiss the ZL1's Can-Am history as inconsequential, as you appear to do.

It's possible that fewer people than you might think are ignorant of the history of the Mark IV all aluminum big block ZL1 engine and its development for use in Can-Am racing.

Originally Posted by classicam

It doesn't matter how or what designation code was used to put the engine in the car they are forever married and known to all as a ZL1 camaro. I know what a COPO is and how the ZL1 came to be and GM sure as hell knew what they were marketing when they slapped that name on the side. You cannot see the Forrest because of the trees.

I think that GM was marketing high performance when they decided to use ZL1 as the trim designation for the new high performance Camaro.

Originally Posted by classicam

You are trying too convince people that GM believes Camaro enthusiasts don't associate the ZL1 name plate with quarter mile performance and its pure nonsense.

The ZL1 engine represented 1960s high performance, in Can-Am racing, in the 9560 COPO Camaro, and in Corvettes. I think that GM believes Camaro enthusiasts associate the ZL1 name plate with high performance.

Originally Posted by classicam

What do you think the majority of people thought when chevy announced the return of the ZL1, CAN-AM or Road courses?

You appear not to understand that Chevrolet has never announced the return of the ZL1 engine. Chevrolet announced the ZL1 Camaro for the first time in 2011. It's unlikely that the ZL1 Mark IV big block engine will ever return.

Originally Posted by classicam

GM is notorious for degrading names for the sake of a buck and they took the holy grail ZL1 name too hype and market the car.

The new ZL1 Camaro is not, and was not intended to be, a 1969 9560 COPO Camaro clone. If a 9560 COPO clone is what you expected, it's not surprising that you're disappointed.

Why do you think GM developed a new COPO Camaro specifically designed for quarter mile drag racing? Maybe because Camaro enthusiasts associate the 9560 COPO Camaro with drag racing?

Originally Posted by classicam

It seems you now want to redefine the ZL1 name, since it didn't live up to the hype on the current Camaro.

I haven't redefined anything. I have simply stated the facts of the history of the ZL1 engine. I can't help it if you don't like those historical facts.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by Blackkaz04

Yes!!!!!!!well written. How can one not associate the baddest of the bad gm muscle cars with 1/4 mile performance....!

I was going to spring for a zl1, but the numbers have made me rethink the whole idea.......I'm out until changes are made and times drop.

If the quarter mile is your thing, maybe you should have considered the new COPO Camaro.

[derklug]

Whatever the name, the fact is that you cannot make any car do all things great. They can do a lot of things well, but great requires specialization. GM made the mistake of letting their marketing outrun their engineering. The ZL1 is very good at the big three, 1/4 mile, road course, and daily driver, but that versatility is letting it get beat on the 1/4 and some road courses.

[Runin11z]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

The new ZL1 Camaro is not, and was not intended to be, a 1969 9560 COPO Camaro clone. If a 9560 COPO clone is what you expected, it's not surprising that you're disappointed.

Why do you think GM developed a new COPO Camaro specifically designed for quarter mile drag racing? Maybe because Camaro enthusiasts associate the 9560 COPO Camaro with drag racing?



I haven't redefined anything. I have simply stated the facts of the history of the ZL1 engine. I can't help it if you don't like those historical facts.

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

If the quarter mile is your thing, maybe you should have considered the new COPO Camaro.

All valid points but I think you are missing the grand scheme of things. When you think of the 69 Camaro + ZL1 what comes to mind? Oh don't tell me a high performance Camaro... The flaws in your logic is that with today's Copo it's not even close to being a street legal vehicle and the 9560 Camaro was a street legal and full factory warranty vehicle. Since you are super savvy on historical significance, what was the top Copo Camaro offered in 69, what engine was it equipped with, and what was its primary function in terms of racing? Answer these questions and you can see where most enthusiasts are making the correlation. Not that I really care at this point as no matter what the point is moot and there is no changing what has already been done. More than anything I hope that Chevrolet and Team Camaro takes all this into consideration and gives us a ZL1 that lives up to the herritage of these two incredibly significant names in performance history...

[Runin11z]

And to the OP and mods sorry for the super thread hijack. To answer the question if you toss a 550rwhp H.C.I Camaro SS on the 1320 against a stock ZL1, the ZL1 is toast.

[C5RocksC5]

Originally Posted by Bad70supreme

So your getting a ZL1, let me ask you this... Why are getting a Zl1 and your only form of racing will be strip? I don't know everything but I have been drag racing for 15 years with lots of different cars, personally the 5th gen in general is not a great drag car and the zl1 is probably the worst choice of the 3 models of Camaro in that respect. I say this because the weight of the car is just to much, the supercharger adds nose weight, the hole rear is upgraded but heavier!

I knew of the lacking performance at the stip, but my love of this car makes me deal with the issues and I will mod to get the results I want. If I could buy a new 5th gen now, it would be the 1Le for sure! Your getting the gearing you need, your still at the standard SS weight, your getting a better trans and suspension and better axles! Ultimately I think it's the better bang for the buck, add tires to this car, Boltons and a cam and your going to have a faster lighter car over the Z for less money with none of the standard SS issues.

Did I say that's all I do? As a matter of fact, I enjoy road racing more than ping straight.