Chassis stiffeners and strut braces.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Moriartii

I believe I see two things here:

1. JusticePete I dont think you make a point either way regarding a chassis brace. The stock OE camaro can pull over 1G, so. How does that translate into any sort of argument for a chassis brace? If you had one how much better could you have done? Cheers
K

First, not a single driver we have used has asked for anything but full race tires and more brakes. These are the same two items that most any race driver will ask for after driving ANY car. Not one of them thought the front chassis to be unstable. Not one thought the rear suspension stepped out. Their evaluations come after track time taking the rumble strip through a hard corner, being on two wheels after 'jumping the 'corner'. The real limiting factor on the Pedders USA Camaro track performance is tires.

How does a 1G run on street tires prove anything about a chassis brace is a good question. Look up the list of cars that pull over a G on the skid pad. They are all really well built cars. REALLY WELL BUILT. In proportion to the weight of the vehicle, they all have more rubber under the car. Rubber has only so much grip. Once the car has taken a set on a glass smooth skid pad, the flex in the chassis has also taken a set and remains constant. If you know how to drive and set the car in the groove on the pad, unless we are talking about a tissue paper bad structure, braces are not a factor. CG is a factor. Track i a factor. Tires are a factor. Suspension geometry is a factor. Alignment is a factor. Chassis flex on a glass smooth pad is virtually eliminated once the car is set.

We are pushing the limits of tires right now. There are nno more 3 second gains to be found. To be clear we are not able to use all the car we have because we test on street tires.

Why street tires? It is a daily driver. Testing on anything but street tires would be a waste of time putting up ridiculous numbers that are more the result of race compound tires than suspension. We sell our part to enthusiasts that want to enjoy thier daily drive to work. We do not make and do not sell race parts. Pedders is an enthusiast driver company. That said we have had great success with our street parts on the track and now are going racing with Circle Track magazine.

IF we were build a race car, triangulating structure would be a priority, so would weight reduction, roll cage, etc... What we are er talking about are EVRYDAY drivers that occasionally see track time on the strip, autocross or road course. The data proves beyond any question that a 5th Gen Camaro is capable of performing on a road course at the sale level as a Z06 Vette without any braces. The limiting factor in performance has not been the chassis according to my three professional drives, the GM on-board computer and the DL1 data logger. The limiting factor has been using street tires.

Switching to from street to full race will drive the data higher. We would be in the 1.8 to 2 G range. We would be in the range of a SCCA T1 dedicated race car -- without bracing.

Where the disagreement arises between Pedders and companies selling chassis braces for street use is that Pedders wants to make clear to the Camaro community that the 5th Gen is capable of truly exceptional performance with an OE drive line, without chassis braces, without replacement arms because of the quality of the OE engineering and build. The 5th Gen is a fantastic car.

This is not to say you can't build a better race car with braces, aftermarket arms and so on. That is not the question of the OP and when maintaining the GM warranty is a priority, be careful what you bolt on your car.

There are a lot of Camaro owners that are excellent drivers and some may be better than the professionals I use. Unless you drive better than Paul Tracy, Stan Wilson and Chris Brannon, you can add an infinite number of chassis braces to your car and you'll gain nothing on track over these drivers. We say that with confidence because we have tested box stock Camaros, modified Camaros with OE tires, and every other possible combination. We never said the 5th Gen chassis didn't flex. We said and still say there is no NEED for a chassis brace on anything but a dedicated 5th Gen full race.

You'll get your best upgrade results for anything short of a dedicated race car with bushes, coils, coilovers, sway bars, wheels and tires. There is a tradition in the Camaro community of adding multiple braces just to have a good car or very good track car. That tradition should change with the 5th Gen. The 5th Gen does not need braces to reach that level. It delivers from the factory a stronger, better built, better performing car than all the other generations.

Add braces because you want to build a race car, not because you NEED them.

[Moriartii]

That is a very interesting read Pete, thank you for typing that out!
Cheers
K

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 2010 Bumblebee

Hi I'm looking for some bolt on ideas, options, opinions for braces and stiffeners for my stock 2SS/RS A6

I'm not interested in springs and sway bars at this time. I just want to keep the chassis tight, and not void my warantee.

For under the chassis I was looking at this:

http://www.hotchkis.net/2010_camaro_...max_brace.html

What about a bolt on strut tower brace? No drilling. Any yellow ones ?

http://www.stillen.com/product.asp?i...WR1&c=SU&m=all

http://www.ws6project.com/user_stor/...oducts_id=3626

Your opinions, links, and experiences are valued, don't be shy !!!

I'm looking for bolt on parts only. I don't want to drill.

Tell us what you are using and why.

Just parroting what I've been told...

If you're not looking for suspension components...you're probably not racing at a level that would require the use of strut-tower braces, etc.

And the Camaro comes from the factory with an Impressively stiff body. That door-frame area? It's all ONE stamping, not a bunch of pieces welded together. The structure is so stiff that it doesn't NEED any extra reinforcement for 90% of people. If you're driving at 11/10ths, you might benefit...but I wouldn't waste my money in your position.

[radz28]

So it kinda' sounds like the consumer should get an idea on what they expect from the car and the usage when considering ANY modification.

Jeeze! I never get tired of seeing the math I'm terrible at it, so I'm glad someone else can do it

Can someone comment on whether-or-not additional bracing would help keep the car tighter, over the long-haul? For example: I plan on keeping my car (when I get it, lol) indefinately. Can these additional braces do anything toward keeping this particular chassis as tight as it was when it was brand new, say, 20 years down the road, after miles and miles of 1320' passes, or hundreds of miles of auto-X'ing or road racing? Is the Zeta II chassis THAT tight that it can withstand the rigors of that kind of driving for that long, without getting a little softer? I'm thinking DOT-legal DRs for the 1320' and the best street tires available for the auto-x'ing and road racing.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by radz282003

So it kinda' sounds like the consumer should get an idea on what they expect from the car and the usage when considering ANY modification...

Spot on!!!

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by radz282003

Can someone comment on whether-or-not additional bracing would help keep the car tighter, over the long-haul? For example: I plan on keeping my car (when I get it, lol) indefinitely. Can these additional braces do anything toward keeping this particular chassis as tight as it was when it was brand new, say, 20 years down the road, after miles and miles of 1320' passes, or hundreds of miles of auto-X'ing or road racing? Is the Zeta II chassis THAT tight that it can withstand the rigors of that kind of driving for that long, without getting a little softer? I'm thinking DOT-legal DRs for the 1320' and the best street tires available for the auto-x'ing and road racing.

That is a really good question. GM does do extensive testing on this and I'll take a guess their answer would be no. This is due to design and manufacturing improvements at GM and across the industry. I am currently using a loaner Lacrosse from Witt Buick with over 80k, it is really long in tooth. It is as quiet as it was new, that bodes well for the 5th Gen.

The Camaro is a different animal in that the use it gets will probably very different from the Buick. Mine has about 9,000 on it and those are HARD miles. It is still as solid as the day I picked it up. With low profile tires, higher rate coils, HUGE increases in roll bar stiffness, full urethane bushes, better brakes and more power than OE I would HOPE it retains the structural integrity. I'll let you know as the years go by. Could triangulating structure with for example a front strut tower bar help keep it tight? I wouldn't argue against that theory, but I cannot confirm it either.

[2010 Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by radz282003

Can someone comment on whether-or-not additional bracing would help keep the car tighter, over the long-haul? For example: I plan on keeping my car (when I get it, lol) indefinately. Can these additional braces do anything toward keeping this particular chassis as tight as it was when it was brand new, say, 20 years down the road, after miles and miles of 1320' passes, or hundreds of miles of auto-X'ing or road racing? Is the Zeta II chassis THAT tight that it can withstand the rigors of that kind of driving for that long, without getting a little softer? I'm thinking DOT-legal DRs for the 1320' and the best street tires available for the auto-x'ing and road racing.

?? X2 . I'm in this boat.. Except I want to reduce wheel hop if there is any when I get my supercharger.
Also, I want to try to stop the creaks, cracks, and rattles before they happen. Some stuff just looks cool too !!!

[radz28]

Originally Posted by 2010 Bumblebee

?? X2 . I'm in this boat.. Except I want to reduce wheel hop if there is any when I get my supercharger.
Also, I want to try to stop the creaks, cracks, and rattles before they happen. Some stuff just looks cool too !!!

It seems like your wheelhop has at least a few easy solutions. I know which way I'm going to go when I get there.

That's the thing for me, too. I don't want any creaks or any of that crack. It just makes me feel like I'm in a qulality car when it's nice and tight. If there's no need, this side of an all-out race car, I'm not interested in adding any more weight. It seems to me, if you go with one company, go with their catalog. For example: If I were to go with Pedders or Pfadt for their solutions, it would seem, by their reasoning that I wouldn't need SFCs (their words to my understanding) because they've address the shortcomings of the chassis with subframe bushings and a STB (in one case anyways). However, it doesn't seem BMR and Hotchkis have exactly the same solutions, so they offer SFCs and STBs and what-not. I was thinking that I might mix-and-match some components, but I'm learning I'm going to have to be careful if I do. Like - if I'm doing the harder/solid subframe bushings, there's probably no need to go with SFCs, so there's some money I can put elsewhere.

There are almost too many choices. Thanks everyone for more information.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 2010 Bumblebee

?? X2 . I'm in this boat.. Except I want to reduce wheel hop if there is any when I get my supercharger.
Also, I want to try to stop the creaks, cracks, and rattles before they happen. Some stuff just looks cool too !!!

The crux of this is the assumption that there will be creaks and rattles. Drive a high mile well used and abused CTSV. You'll find it to be a solid structure. There may be suspension wear, there may be worn gears, the brakes may be warped, but the structure is still solid and that is a generation BEFORE the 5th Gen. The new 5th Gen is stronger than the last CTS monocoque and arguably as strong as the new CTS monocoque. The CTS is an industry benchmark for being a solid vehicle.

Do you wear a belt and suspenders? Do you carry two umbrellas just in case? What I am trying to explain to the Camaro community is that the 5th Gen is by far and away the best Camaro GM has built. It will not fall apart and become a rattle trap. If you need further proof, find a used and abused 2004 -- 2006 Pontiac GTO. I know a little bit about these cars since it is a Holden and we have been doing suspension work on the V fill in the second letter chassis for over 25 years. EVERY Camaro owner that I took out in my HIGHLY modified GTO made the same comments.

1. I wish my Camaro cornered like your Pedderised GTO!
2. There isn't a rattle or squeak in this car!

The GTO was a VZ and based on a decades old Opel chassis that Holden modified over the years. The next to check out is the Pontiac G8 / Holden Commodore known as the VE and ZETA. This is a far more solid platform than the GTO and they are also rattle and squeak free. Then came the 5th Gen Camaro known as ZETA II to many with an even stronger monocoque and more robust front end. There is absolutely no reason to expect a 5th Gen Camaro to become a rattle trap.

This is not to say there are not issues with some of these vehicles. The GTO and G8 struts mount are consumables like tires and brakes. They wear out and require replacement. The Camaro has a far more robust strut mount because of platform evolution. The G8 has some issues with ball joints in the radius and control arms making noise. The Camaro has more robust ball joints in the front end. Everything I see in the Camaro points to the platform being BETTER than the vehicles related to it, vehicles we can drive with miles to make a reasonable projection into the future for the 5th Gen Camaro. Based on the lineage of the 5th Gen Camaro, there is no reason to be concerned about the structural integrity.

Now about your GM warranty with a blower, you must have a VERY MOD FREINDLY DEALER!

[radz28]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The crux of this is the assumption that there will be creaks and rattles. Drive a high mile well used and abused CTSV. You'll find it to be a solid structure. There may be suspension wear, there may be worn gears, the brakes may be warped, but the structure is still solid and that is a generation BEFORE the 5th Gen. The new 5th Gen is stronger than the last CTS monocoque and arguably as strong as the new CTS monocoque. The CTS is an industry benchmark for being a solid vehicle.

Do you wear a belt and suspenders? Do you carry two umbrellas just in case? What I am trying to explain to the Camaro community is that the 5th Gen is by far and away the best Camaro GM has built. It will not fall apart and become a rattle trap. If you need further proof, find a used and abused 2004 -- 2006 Pontiac GTO. I know a little bit about these cars since it is a Holden and we have been doing suspension work on the V fill in the second letter chassis for over 25 years. EVERY Camaro owner that I took out in my HIGHLY modified GTO made the same comments.

1. I wish my Camaro cornered like your Pedderised GTO!
2. There isn't a rattle or squeak in this car!

The GTO was a VZ and based on a decades old Opel chassis that Holden modified over the years. The next to check out is the Pontiac G8 / Holden Commodore known as the VE and ZETA. This is a far more solid platform than the GTO and they are also rattle and squeak free. Then came the 5th Gen Camaro known as ZETA II to many with an even stronger monocoque and more robust front end. There is absolutely no reason to expect a 5th Gen Camaro to become a rattle trap.

This is not to say there are not issues with some of these vehicles. The GTO and G8 struts mount are consumables like tires and brakes. They wear out and require replacement. The Camaro has a far more robust strut mount because of platform evolution. The G8 has some issues with ball joints in the radius and control arms making noise. The Camaro has more robust ball joints in the front end. Everything I see in the Camaro points to the platform being BETTER than the vehicles related to it, vehicles we can drive with miles to make a reasonable projection into the future for the 5th Gen Camaro. Based on the lineage of the 5th Gen Camaro, there is no reason to be concerned about the structural integrity.

Now about your GM warranty with a blower, you must have a VERY MOD FREINDLY DEALER!

Does that mean I shouldn't wear socks with my sandles?...

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by radz282003

Does that mean I shouldn't wear socks with my sandles?...

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by 2010 Bumblebee

?? X2 . I'm in this boat.. Except I want to reduce wheel hop if there is any when I get my supercharger.
Also, I want to try to stop the creaks, cracks, and rattles before they happen. Some stuff just looks cool too !!!

You are wise to be thinking about the entire vehicle rather than just the hormone increasing, cool ,looking, tire smoke generating blower. You can seriously increase the effective torque transfer to your tires by making suspension upgrades. I am not talking about bracing, but true suspension components. The links are perfectly strong. It is the bushings that when driving aggressively and especially supported by a blower, are not capable of maximizing what you can put down. I have now been involved with 2 Seriously high hp Camaros with significant to moderate wheel hop. doing our bushing package in the rear took care of this on these Camaros. As I have discussed before, you are better off reducing the overall max hp you want to do, and put that money into controlling the suspension which will give you a much higher effective real world hp at the ground.

mike
dms

[2010 Bumblebee]

Exactly which bushings are you talking about? Trailing arms & differential housing bushing? The hotchicks brace looks like it might help a bit also. I was thinking about getting trailing arms with polyurethane bushings and the hotchicks brace. Does anyone know if there is a driveshaft loop that will bolt in with the hotchicks brace?

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by 2010 Bumblebee

Exactly which bushings are you talking about? Trailing arms & differential housing bushing? The hotchicks brace looks like it might help a bit also. I was thinking about getting trailing arms with polyurethane bushings and the hotchicks brace. Does anyone know if there is a driveshaft loop that will bolt in with the hotchicks brace?

The bushings for the trailing arms are the same as the bushings for the toe links. To do both would take 4 EP7323 Zeta Camaro Rear Toe, and trailing arm links in and out. $99.09 each

Front raduis rod inserts are EP1200 Zeta II Rear Extreme Sub-Frame Connector Kit $255.88

The upper rear control arm bushing is a critical control bushing. The P/N is EP7322 Camaro Only Rear Control arm - Upper inner rear. $99.09

Now if you give me some goals and/or budget, I can help you more

thanks
mike
dms