LNF vs. K20A: Comparison Proving GM's Misperception

[The_Blur]

The LNF is a great motor. It is GM's greatest 4-cylinder monster, packing 260 hp in power and 260 ft-lbs in torque. It dominates in all current GM applications, and many automotive enthusiasts have expressed regret that GM has agreed to sell or close the only 2 brands to include LNF-powered roadsters, Saturn and Pontiac.

The K20A is Honda's glory motor, bringing 260 hp and 237 ft-lbs to the table, and finding itself in some high-quality beasts, like the Areil Atom, an American-made lightweight that accelerates to 60 in under 3 seconds. It represents another success in Honda's lineup of 4-cylinder motors. With consumers thinking about Honda as a company built on efficiency, Honda has done a good job of sticking to 4-cylinder performance and building great, little motors like the K20A.

I'm sure that someone will point out that the K20A is not the only Honda powerhouse. Be sure to line up each of those engines against GM's LNF. I even provided you a link to get started discussing the K-series of engines.

Why did I bother bringing up this contest on a forum that tends to discuss an engine with triple the displacement of either 4-banger? It's a fair question, and I'm sure that you're all thinking that this thread is a little ridiculous, but someone needs to point out the obvious fact that these engines are a great example of direct competition. General Motors has produced an engine that outperforms the slightly larger Honda motor with matching displacement. To boot, the American motor maintains the tradition of accelerating faster with that additional 23 ft-lbs of torque that it brings to the ring. Consider that a fine hook by the great American automaker.

I'm sure a Honda advocate will cry me a river about how it is the great 4-cylinder automaker and will back it up with some great arguments. I am not here to dispute this fact. Honda has done very well on the efficiency side, and the brand has matched it with reliability when it comes to production. The point of this thread is not to dispute that Honda is a good brand.

Instead, the point of this brand is that our great American motor company, GM, can match or exceed anything that anyone throws at it. We've seen that proven with the great ZR1. You might also want to know that the SSC Ultimate Aero TT features a GM-sourced engine to power the car that beat the Veyron 16.4 in the top speed department and got there faster. Now, GM has learned that it must build the best of everything. As a consequence, GM has engaged itself in a multi-front war against great performance supercars, daily drivers, and now the increasingly popular 4-cylinder performance division.

GM is actively fighting the image that it can only build the world's best V8s. This is really a remarkable image to fight because it represents that best performance in a mainstream engine layout, but it prohibits cost-conscience buyers from realizing the quality of GM's other products. Not only can GM build the world's best V8s, but GM builds the world's best motors in the world. They can drive for 1,000,000 when treated right, and the performance ones are tested under grueling conditions.

Stop considering GM as a company that gave birth to some of the world's best muscle cars and trucks. That image is too limiting. GM simply makes the best cars across the automotive industry. That is why they are "General" Motors, not just "V8" Motors.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Nothing to add, nothing to dispute. The ONLY thing standing in GM's way of world domination is perception and misguided loyalties.

[stovt001]

LNF better show up in a Cruze SS.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Nothing to add, nothing to dispute. The ONLY thing standing in GM's way of world domination is perception and misguided loyalties.

World domination.

Such a pretty phrase.

GM seriously has one of the best lineups of engines in the industry...starting from the 4-cylinders to the V6s to the fire-breathing import-roasting LS9.

I was mulling things over at work today about how awesome GM's direct-injected V8s are going to be...I expect great things out of GM Powertrain in the near future...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

I was mulling things over at work today about how awesome GM's direct-injected V8s are going to be...I expect great things out of GM Powertrain in the near future...

What, you mean like a 450hp, 30mpg Corvette? A dream, but perhaps reachable...

And did I hear a little birdie sing "HCCI" as it flew by my ear? What a beautiful song...

[syr74]

Actually, I think the fact that this comparison really only works when applied to a piece of a car, in this case the engine, and not the whole car demonstrates that 'perception and misguided loyalty' are not GM's primary obstacles, not by a long shot. The problem with GM is that they can't seem to get the whole package right, and to be blunt this problem is almost universal across the lineup. Whether it be the Solstice, Vette, or G8 the problems are obvious,

The two exceptions to this are the CTS and Malibu, and even the Malibu dies a bit in marketing.

[MrIcky]

I found it interesting that they took the LSJ our of the Ariel Atom and replaced it with the K20A. Part of the reason for that was that the LSJ was too torquey off the bat for that light car and people had trouble controlling it (or so I understand). It's a shame the LNF didn't replace the LSJ. I saw that the LSJ is making it to the Fisker Karma though- which is a very high profile introduction for a new manufacturer.

I agree though. I know you won't see it in times like these, but a stretched Kappa or whatever the Solstice sits on turned into a small sedan with the LNF and RWD and good suspension tuning would light up the magazines like nothing else. If they did a good job on the interior and kept it to $25ish it would be almost a shoe-in for 10 best lists, etc.

[MikesZ]

Originally Posted by stovt001

LNF better show up in a Cruze SS.

x 2!!!!!

[Zabo]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

What, you mean like a 450hp, 30mpg Corvette? A dream, but perhaps reachable...

And did I hear a little birdie sing "HCCI" as it flew by my ear? What a beautiful song...

IIRC the LS3 in the 'vette already hit 32mpg in some cases..

[MikesZ]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

What, you mean like a 450hp, 30mpg Corvette? A dream, but perhaps reachable...

And did I hear a little birdie sing "HCCI" as it flew by my ear? What a beautiful song...

So would that mean a possible 40mpg V-6?

[Zabo]

Originally Posted by MikesZ

So would that mean a possible 40mpg V-6?

Totally possible.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by syr74

Actually, I think the fact that this comparison really only works when applied to a piece of a car, in this case the engine, and not the whole car demonstrates that 'perception and misguided loyalty' are not GM's primary obstacles, not by a long shot. The problem with GM is that they can't seem to get the whole package right, and to be blunt this problem is almost universal across the lineup. Whether it be the Solstice, Vette, or G8 the problems are obvious,

The two exceptions to this are the CTS and Malibu, and even the Malibu dies a bit in marketing.

I'd like to see you explain how the LNF-powered Cobalt SS scored 8:22 at the Nurburgring, 2 seconds behind the Camaro SS. I'd go ahead and argue that GM got the whole package right, including the suspension. From a performance perspective, that's all there is.

It would only be appropriate to argue that the Civic is an attractive car, finally. It's angular shape gives the front end an exotic look, and the interior is unique, especially with the digital speedometer and dash. That being said, attractiveness is such a subjective topic that discussing it scientifically is nearly impossible, so let's focus on the objective facts: the LNF outperforms the K-series Honda motor when placed in the same product. It's indisputable.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

I'd like to see you explain how the LNF-powered Cobalt SS scored 8:22 at the Nurburgring, 2 seconds behind the Camaro SS. I'd go ahead and argue that GM got the whole package right, including the suspension. From a performance perspective, that's all there is.

It would only be appropriate to argue that the Civic is an attractive car, finally. It's angular shape gives the front end an exotic look, and the interior is unique, especially with the digital speedometer and dash. That being said, attractiveness is such a subjective topic that discussing it scientifically is nearly impossible, so let's focus on the objective facts: the LNF outperforms the K-series Honda motor when placed in the same product. It's indisputable.

You summed up your post with the assertion that GM makes the best cars and trucks in the world, based it would seem poon your assertion that their motors are the best in the industry. If we are going to revisit the strict comparison of engines here then I agree the Turbocharged Ecotec is 'better' as a practical performance engine without question.

That said, would I take a Cobalt SS over a Civic Si? Probably not. And that speaks volumes here because I really don't care for the Honda's 'zing her til she screams' approach to going fast. I like a nice, high revving piece as much as the next guy, but I don't want to be forced to drive with the tach needle in the stratosphere in order to actually move with anything approaching gusto.

The problem? The Cobalt SS goes fairly fast and, in terms of absolute numbers, handles very well. That said, refinement is at the low end of the spectrum to be kind and the car doesn't communicate like it ought to for a performnace car. Throw in styling which says 'I was a Cavalier in a past life' and a fairly chintzy interior and the verdict is in. The Cobalt is a strict numbers car that doesn't nothing but go fast particularly well. Unfortunately for GM there are cars out there with comparable performance that do those other things you will notice in your daily ride better.

For similar money I can get a Mazdaspeed 3 with a better interior, more refinement, and similar performance. GM could fix all of this fairly easily by exerting a little sweat tweaking what is a fundamentally excellent platform for better ride and handling and throwing a restyle the Cobalts way which doesn't draw a connection to a car best forgotten. Will GM do this? Not a chance.

Why do I say this? Lets take the Corvette as an example. What keeps the Corvette from toppling the 911 from its throne as the iconic global sports car? The answer isn't complicated. A truly world class interior to replace the not suitable for a Hyundai version the current model dons, seats which aren't ridiculously uncomfortable and which offer something approaching actual support, a bit more care given to the build quality, and a steering rack which doesn't make a Trabant feel like it has good feedback and the Vette has a decent shot at the throne.

These problems have been brutally evident since the C6 arrived, and frankly predate that same C6 model by decades. In fact, the actual problems with the Vette are so relatively few in number, and so glaring when the car is driven, that you have to wonder how the C6 made it through production with these issues in the first place. So, what has GM done in order to fix what is wrong with the Vette? Well, they fixed the one thing which wasn't broken in the first place, how fast the Vette is, and gave us the Z06. Still the same laughable interior, still the same 'is this really a sports car' steering, still the same awful seats, and still some questionable build quality issues.

That didn't work, the Z06 was too rough around the edges and only took the Vette's existing shortcomings and threw them into a faster car with terrible NVH. How to fix that? Continue to leave the same terrible interior, seats, and steering in the car but make it even more ridiculously fast and call it a ZR1. Huh? Anybody home? Nobody is complaining about the amount of speed offered here guys. How about we try fixing what is actually broken here?

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by syr74

You summed up you post with the assertion that GM makes the best cars and trucks in the world, based it would seem on your assertion that their motors are the best in the industry. If we are going to revisit the strict comparison of engines here then I agree the Turbocharged Ecotec is 'better' as a practical performance engine without question.

That said, would I take a Cobalt SS over a Civic Si? Probably not. And that speaks volumes here because I really don't care for the Honda's 'zing her til she screams' approach to going fast. I like a nice, high revving piece as much as the next guy, but I don't want to be forced to drive with the tach needle in the stratosphere in order to actually move with anything approaching gusto.

The problem? The Cobalt SS goes fairly fast and, in terms of absolute numbers, handles very well. That said, refinement is at the low end of the spectrum to be kind and the car doesn't communicate like it ought to. Throw in styling which says 'I was a Cavalier in a past life' and a fairly chintzy interior and the verdict is in.

For similar money I can get a Mazdaspeed 3 with a better interior, more refinement, and similar performance. GM could fix all of this fairly easily by exerting a little sweat tweaking what is a fundamentally excellent platform for better ride and handling and throwing a restyle the Cobalts way which doesn't draw a connection to a car best forgotten. Will GM do this? Not a chance.

Why do I say this? Lets take the Corvette as an example. What keeps the Corvette from toppling the 911 from its throne as the iconic global sports car? The answer isn't complicated. A truly world class interior to replace the not suitable for a Hyundai version the current model dons, seats which aren't ridiculously uncomfortable and which offer something approaching actual support, a bit more care given to the build quality, and a steering rack which doesn't make a Trabant feel like it has good feedback and the Vette has a decent shot at the throne.

These problems have been brutally evident since the C6 arrived, and frankly predate the C6 model by decades to be blunt. In fact, the actual problems with the Vette are so relatively few in number, and so glaring when the car is driven, that you have to wonder how the C6 made it through production with these issues. So, what has GM done in order to fix what is wrong with the Vette? Well, they fixed the one thing which wasn't broken in the first place, how fast the Vette is, and gave us the Z06. Still the same laughable interior, still the same 'is this really a sports car' steering, still the same awful seats, and still some questionable build quality issues.

That didn't work, the Z06 was too rough around the edges and only took the Vette's existing shortcomings and threw them into a faster car with terrible NVH. How to fix that? Continue to leave the same terrible interior, seats, and steering in the car but make it even more ridiculously fast and call it a ZR1. Huh? Anybody home? Nobody is complaining about the amount of speed offered here guys. How about we try fixing what is actually broken here?

You responded with exactly the opposite of what we're looking to discuss in this thread. I am fully aware that the Corvette lacks the interior styling of a high-end exotic or even a modern sports car. It is behind the times. I agree. You even made sure to point out how the Cobalt SS doesn't convey refinement in its execution. I agree. The Cobalt SS interior could be substantially upgraded to make it more attractive, sporty, or competitive with other cars in its class. That is not the intended issue of this thread. If I wanted to talk about appearance, stock appearance wouldn't matter. i'd be discussing aftermarket kits, custom jobs, and how it doesn't matter what interior came with the car because creativity allows anyone to create anything with the right work and investment. I would discuss how some products in the GM lineup are new and fresh in appearance while others, Cobalt and Corvette included, could use some sort of serious renovation in order to match or exceed the trends of the modern market.

That's not my area of expertise. I'm not exactly a professional designer.

Let's talk performance. Reread my first post. In summary, I'm arguing that GM is known for V8s, and these great motors actually hinder GM, even though it makes GM cars that utilize those powerful engines competitive with the world's most distinguished performance brands. I argue that GM also produces the world's greatest 4-cylinder engines, along with those V8s, and that the LNF is the best engine of that class. I compared it to the K20A, a very popular Honda motor. Let's discuss other comparisons to the LNF, and argue about performance rather than how cars look.