Did I Miss Something?

[tones2SS]

Originally Posted by 68vert

They have said the Z/28 beats the ZL1 by about 3 sec. They didnt mention th e track, but assume one of GM's own proving tracks.
Also, the new tires on the Z/28 are suuuuper soft and sticky. Treadwear is like 60 or 80.

Wow, did not know that. Then, I am assuming the Z28 will come with a higher price tag?

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by Wolty

Whether the z/28 was a drag car or a Trans Am series racer was not my main point...I was mainly pointing out the fact that why does the Z/28 have the 427 instead of the ZL1 as it did in 1969?

For the same reason the current SS has a 376 instead of a 396. The engines of 1969 aren't in production anymore, at least not for new cars. The engines in the new Camaros are there because that is what GM produces currently.

The big block is gone...GM only uses one V8 architecture, and the LS7 has been seen by GM as an engine that isn't robust enough to boost and attach a 100,000 mile warranty to at the same time.

[BrazenBeast]

Originally Posted by Wolty

Whether the z/28 was a drag car or a Trans Am series racer was not my main point...I was mainly pointing out the fact that why does the Z/28 have the 427 instead of the ZL1 as it did in 1969?

It depends on how you look at things. True the original ZL1 had a 427 and the new one does not. However, the original ZL1 had the most powerfull engine in a camaro that year as the ZL1 still does.

[SPOOKYGUNNER]

Originally Posted by Wolty

From what I recall and have read about the ZL1 and Z-28...in the sixties/early seventies version of the Z28 was the smooth ride super fast camaro...you could get auto, AC, and the up-scaled RS package with the Z28. On the other hand the ZL1 was the bare bones stripped down version with the 427...a drag car.

67-69 Z28 only available with 302 and 4 spd...no auto until 1970. Also 69 was the only yeae for large journal forged crank. ..DZ ENGINE CODE. Bought a 69 after my 1st tour in Vietnam JN 70. Put the "off road" cam and it pulled hard at 7500. " Traco Trans Am motors with factory crossrams were pulling to 9500!!!

Am I missing something or did GM get it backwards with the current Z28 (bare bones drag car with the 427) vs ZL1 (super fast smooth ride, LSA...not a 427)???

69 Z 302DZ

[flyingskibiker]

'68s (MO) had large journals, too. I believe the 350s did as well.?.? It used the same block.

[hognutz]

Originally Posted by Wolty

Whether the z/28 was a drag car or a Trans Am series racer was not my main point...I was mainly pointing out the fact that why does the Z/28 have the 427 instead of the ZL1 as it did in 1969?

simple that is the best N/A motor chevy has in the parts bin right now.

They are targeting performance before nostalgia.

you can only take the throwback stuff so far. I mean these engines are all aluminum small blocks.

Niether of these cars in 1969 had aluminum smallblock motors. Times have changed and they are building the cars.

both of these cars are boat anchor heavy compared to either fo the originals and they will both run circles around the originals.

[HDRDTD]

Also, as it was pointed out, the LS7 is a high-reving little monster (7,000RPM) that on a road course, allow you to not have to shift gears as often.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by flyingskibiker

Basically, besides the engine and tires/wheels of the '67-9 Z28 RPO (it did consist of more than that), one could order the same car with a 350 in it... Just check the SS-350 box on the order form and get the 12-bolt. Add M21, HD suspension and front disc brakes, plus a few other bits and pieces, and you were on par with the track performance of the production Z/28. One could argue that the 302 could wind up and had more horsepower than was on paper. I would think checking another box on the SS order form to change rear gears and it would most likely make it right back up.

Once a buyer checked the Z28 box on the order form, they didn't have to stop. They could add radio (no first gen came with a radio by default), RS, power anything, console, gauges, etc. etc. The only things they couldn't check were convertible (but you could get a vinyl top!), A/C, and automatic. So, it wasn't a track car any more than an SS was a strip car. Yes, one could buy it and take it to the track. But it was a STREET car first... It was never stripped down. OK, in '67-9 there wasn't much to begin with, but...

You are correct that the only options that were prohibited on the first generation Z/28's were AT, A/C, and the convertible option, so the first generation Z/28 wasn't a stripped version of the Camaro.

However, the 302 engine was the main thing that made the first generation Z/28's what they were, and one can't really over state the differences between first generation Z/28's 302 and the L48 that was installed in first generation SS350's. The L48 was not an engine that was particularly suitable for racing, in fact, it wasn't much different from the non-SS plain L30 and LM1 V8s. Some of the high performance parts that distinguished the 302 from the other small block V8's included its solid lifter 30-30 cam, a high rise aluminum intake manifold, a large Holley double-pumper carb, deep groove pulleys, four bolt main bearing caps (at least in '69), etc.

So to say that besides the engine (and tires/wheels) that one could order a SS350 with certain options and one would have a vehicle on par with the track performance of the Z/28, I believe, is a misnomer, much like saying that a Corvette with a 427/390hp L36 engine could be equipped, except for the engine, similar to a Corvette with 427/430hp L88. The 302, with its high revving racing durability, is really what distinguished the Z/28 from other first generation Camaros, similar to how L88 Corvettes were distinguished from other 427 Corvettes in that era.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by Wolty

...I was mainly pointing out the fact that why does the Z/28 have the 427 instead of the ZL1 as it did in 1969?

Today's LS7 427 small block is a completely different engine than the Mark IV 427 big block of the mid to late 1960's.

Today's LS7 is more similar to the 1967-69 302 than it is to the the 1969 427 ZL1, just as today's LSA is more similar to the 1969 427 ZL1 than it is to the 1967-69 302.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Wolty

From what I recall and have read about the ZL1 and Z-28...in the sixties/early seventies version of the Z28 was the smooth ride super fast camaro...you could get auto, AC, and the up-scaled RS package with the Z28. On the other hand the ZL1 was the bare bones stripped down version with the 427...a drag car.

Am I missing something or did GM get it backwards with the current Z28 (bare bones drag car with the 427) vs ZL1 (super fast smooth ride, LSA...not a 427)???

You need to focus on the difference between conceptual and literal interpretation of the past cars.

The first-gen Z/28 was built to road-race, and compete on the track.

The ZL1 was built to shock and awe with power and technology (one of the first aluminum block V8s ever used in a Chevy).

The fact you could get all those options on the Z28, I think was a factor of the "ala carte" ordering system that existed back then. That's dead and gone, now...

This new Z/28, like the original, was born and bred on the track. They took certain measures and used existing technologies to meet that goal, like the LS7, Carbon brakes, no-option interior (for light weight), etc...

The new ZL1, like the original, features big power, big technology (MR suspension, among other things). But none of these cars are strictly "drag racing" cars....the COPO Camaro is for that. The production Camaros are all developed to excel on a road course - a true test of a cars mettle....a good road course will require power, braking, and handling...drag strips only really require one of the three. That's not to say they can't also drag race, though....but it's not a the sole focus.

Ah - but I'm rambling.

Nothing about the 5th-generation Camaro is directly taken from a previous generation. It's all conceptual design cues, or a modern interpretation of what a past car was. It's not the 60s anymore, and so things have changed.

But boiled down:

ZL1 = big power, big tech

Z/28 = track focus, handling.

That's the way it was then, and that's the way it is, now.

[flyingskibiker]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

You are correct that the only options that were prohibited on the first generation Z/28's were AT, A/C, and the convertible option, so the first generation Z/28 wasn't a stripped version of the Camaro.

However, the 302 engine was the main thing that made the first generation Z/28's what they were, and one can't really over state the differences between first generation Z/28's 302 and the L48 that was installed in first generation SS350's. The L48 was not an engine that was particularly suitable for racing, in fact, it wasn't much different from the non-SS plain L30 and LM1 V8s. Some of the high performance parts that distinguished the 302 from the other small block V8's included its solid lifter 30-30 cam, a high rise aluminum intake manifold, a large Holley double-pumper carb, deep groove pulleys, four bolt main bearing caps (at least in '69), etc.

So to say that besides the engine (and tires/wheels) that one could order a SS350 with certain options and one would have a vehicle on par with the track performance of the Z/28, I believe, is a misnomer, much like saying that a Corvette with a 427/390hp L36 engine could be equipped, except for the engine, similar to a Corvette with 427/430hp L88. The 302, with its high revving racing durability, is really what distinguished the Z/28 from other first generation Camaros, similar to how L88 Corvettes were distinguished from other 427 Corvettes in that era.

I knew someone would respond this way as soon as I wrote it!

Sure the engine was the big difference. I was just saying that the 302 and wheels/tires were about it as far as differences between the models (options wise). Plus, it was a street car one could take to the track (unless one put cross rams on it!). Not vise versa. Also, that it wasn't any more stripped than other models (I realize you agreed already). I kind of hate using the term stripped to refer to the 2014... Plus, one could add options to the first gen Z/28 to their heart's content.

That's all. I am one of the people that think the 2014 is awesome. Since a new car wouldn't be my first or second car in my "fleet", I am torn between the to Zs... I also want to get more into track day events. But we will have to wait until the prices are released.

I am also one of the people that, well, don't really mind what the few changes look like. Meaning, I don't LOVE the taillights. But I don't hate them, either. I actually have already thought about ways to modify them if I did start to dislike them... And how to put HIDs/halos up front...

[chevy 3]

All I can say is its a great time to be a Chevy fan and Chevy hit it out of the park on this one.

[Pappa Joe]

Originally Posted by jazznurse

I seriously doubt if the new Z/28 will "run circles around" the ZL1. It's only 300 lbs lighter. Most of the technology it uses is from the ZL1. Maybe the should be marketing it as a "ZL1 Light". And the same people who cried to have the ZL1 available as an automatic will scream for the Z/28 to have one as well. Some people are never happy. Personally, I am. I have my ZL1, and it's all the car I'll ever want, or need, and I am NEVER getting rid of it. I look forward to running a road course againt some of my Z/28 brethren. Either, way, the winner is A CHEVY CAMARO!

Ya ...Thats one of the reasons I wouldnt buy a Z28 no auto ,too old and lazy to learn how to drive standard now! Plus wife couldnt drive it in case of emergency! Prolly only reason I have a ZL1 is because GT500 didnt have auto.