What If?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Let's play this game for a moment. I'll preface by saying that I'm as much a muscle-car enthusiast as the next person. I don't want to hear anything but a V8 rumble coming out of my car (or close to it), and I LIKE the feeling of torque that I detect with my butt-dyno.

But I'm also a bit of a forward thinker...and I mentioned in another thread that the Genises coupe got me thinking; so...


__________________________________________________ _______

Sometimes...I wonder if the V8(and all it's required structural reinforcements) isn't holding the Camaro back. I love a throaty, fire-breathing V8 as much as the next muscle-car diehard...but the thought has been crossing my mind lately. I wonder if it was a Turbo 4, and V6-only vehicle....could the Camaro become something along these lines:

Think about a 3450lb, 220hp Turbo-4 cylinder. 30mpg+, and performance slightly lower than the current 2010 V6 model.

Then a 3600lb, 380+hp Turbo-V6. Performance at or above the 2010 SS with proper gearing, etc. And it returns an impressive 27+mpg.

The vehicle would be slightly smaller than what we're getting. No bigger than the Mustang to be sure. It would be a thoroughly modern powertrain. It would be a representation of the times by moving away from the V8 to take advantage of lighter, more potent powerplants. But would you all buy it? If it looked like the 2010 Camaro, sounded like the 2010 Camaro, was chalk full of all the promised techno-gadgets, and cost no more than what we're expecting for it?? Would any of you opt for a V6-powered SS?


EDIT: I realize we aren't even driving our 2010, yet...but think about it.....

[fastball]

Spoken like a true enthusiast powertrain engineer. That's how the real engineers think...... when they're first presented with the plans for a car.

Then it gets bogged down in company beaurocracy, federal safety standards, EPA and CAFE regulations, arguements between the front end designers and rear end designers, and before you know it your 3300 pound turbo'd rocket that gets 28 MPG and handles like it's on rails weighs 3800 lbs and requires engines with lots of low end torque to keep from stalling or feeling annemic and handles like a '72 New Yorker.

Welcome to the world of modern car design

[jmliptak]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

__________________________________________________ _______

Sometimes...I wonder if the V8(and all it's required structural reinforcements) isn't holding the Camaro back. I love a throaty, fire-breathing V8 as much as the next muscle-car diehard...but the thought has been crossing my mind lately. I wonder if it was a Turbo 4, and V6-only vehicle....could the Camaro become something along these lines (but MUCH better):

Think about a 3450lb, 220hp Turbo-4 cylinder. 30mpg+, and performance slightly lower than the current 2010 V6 model.

Then a 3600lb, 380+hp Turbo-V6. Performance at or above the 2010 SS with proper gearing, etc. And it returns an impressive 27+mpg.

It would be a thoroughly modern powertrain. It would be a representation of the times by moving away from the V8 to take advantage of lighter, more potent powerplants. But would you all buy it? If it looked like the 2010 Camaro, was chalk full of all the promised techno-gadgets, and cost no more than what we're expecting for it?? Would any of you opt for a V6-powered SS?

There is already a 300 hp/300 ftlb version of the turbo 4 lurking out there...

If it had been possible to use a stretched Kappa (realizing that it couldn't be stretched anymore than the Vette could do to HOW it is done) that would rock. I would buy one, especially if the difference was that or nothing. I looked at the upcoming Solstice Coupe, but there is not enough room for me to make it practical...A turbo 6 would be very cool, and we are likely to seen one eventually....

When the choice is change or die, I vote for change.....

[Mr Twisty]

Everyone is still confused about the sound of the exhaust, is it a 6 or an 8? Apparently the 6 soundsvery good in person. The turbo 4 if it got 30 mpg+ hiway would be a looker and affordable. This could truly be a NEW generation Camaro in more ways than one.

[Dunk31]

I hope I don't get flamed for this, but think back to the mid 80's and the Buick GNX. A turbo 6 that still to this day smokes about 90% of the cars on the road. I definately think a turbo 6 could make it, but call me old fashioned... I still want my V8. But if it wasn't available and it was a turbo 6 or nothin, I'd be in line to buy one. If nothin else, but for the georgeous styling of the car.

[flaguy]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Let's play this game for a moment. I'll preface by saying that I'm as much a muscle-car enthusiast as the next person. I don't want to hear anything but a V8 rumble coming out of my car (or close to it), and I LIKE the feeling of torque that I detect with my butt-dyno.

But I'm also a bit of a forward thinker...and I mentioned in another thread that the Genises coupe got me thinking; so...


__________________________________________________ _______

Sometimes...I wonder if the V8(and all it's required structural reinforcements) isn't holding the Camaro back. I love a throaty, fire-breathing V8 as much as the next muscle-car diehard...but the thought has been crossing my mind lately. I wonder if it was a Turbo 4, and V6-only vehicle....could the Camaro become something along these lines:

Think about a 3450lb, 220hp Turbo-4 cylinder. 30mpg+, and performance slightly lower than the current 2010 V6 model.

Then a 3600lb, 380+hp Turbo-V6. Performance at or above the 2010 SS with proper gearing, etc. And it returns an impressive 27+mpg.

The vehicle would be slightly smaller than what we're getting. No bigger than the Mustang to be sure. It would be a thoroughly modern powertrain. It would be a representation of the times by moving away from the V8 to take advantage of lighter, more potent powerplants. But would you all buy it? If it looked like the 2010 Camaro, sounded like the 2010 Camaro, was chalk full of all the promised techno-gadgets, and cost no more than what we're expecting for it?? Would any of you opt for a V6-powered SS?


EDIT: I realize we aren't even driving our 2010, yet...but think about it.....

In all reality, I truly don't think we are too far off from seeing this. I really can see the day where the base model camaro/mustang is a 4banger, mid model (SS/GT) is a turbocharged V6 and top end model (Z28/Cobra) is a twin turbo highly tuned V6.

Regulations and gas prices say this is the only way to maintain performance for the future.

But....people were probably saying the same thing back in the 80's too so I dunno.

I don't think it would be that bad of a deal either. Hell, look at the Supra...that's been kicking ass for decades

[Scotsman]

Anything that keeps the Camaro name alive and within reach of the intended audience I am ALL for. This includes reducing the cylinder count, partial electrification of the powertrain, whatever it takes to keep the Camaro up to date technology wise with the reality of increasing gas prices and a need to explore alternative means of propulsion. And you know what? I have more than a hunch GM is up for the challenge. Although many will bemoan a Camaro with no V8 they'll get used to it, because there still will be no substitute for an American high performance icon. End of story.

[joes3rdcamaro82/91/2010]

If in the future this is what would be available, it will always boil down for me to the top performer. The more kicking it does I will be there.

[Xanthos]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Let's play this game for a moment. I'll preface by saying that I'm as much a muscle-car enthusiast as the next person. I don't want to hear anything but a V8 rumble coming out of my car (or close to it), and I LIKE the feeling of torque that I detect with my butt-dyno.

But I'm also a bit of a forward thinker...and I mentioned in another thread that the Genises coupe got me thinking; so...


__________________________________________________ _______

Sometimes...I wonder if the V8(and all it's required structural reinforcements) isn't holding the Camaro back. I love a throaty, fire-breathing V8 as much as the next muscle-car diehard...but the thought has been crossing my mind lately. I wonder if it was a Turbo 4, and V6-only vehicle....could the Camaro become something along these lines:

Think about a 3450lb, 220hp Turbo-4 cylinder. 30mpg+, and performance slightly lower than the current 2010 V6 model.

Then a 3600lb, 380+hp Turbo-V6. Performance at or above the 2010 SS with proper gearing, etc. And it returns an impressive 27+mpg.

The vehicle would be slightly smaller than what we're getting. No bigger than the Mustang to be sure. It would be a thoroughly modern powertrain. It would be a representation of the times by moving away from the V8 to take advantage of lighter, more potent powerplants. But would you all buy it? If it looked like the 2010 Camaro, sounded like the 2010 Camaro, was chalk full of all the promised techno-gadgets, and cost no more than what we're expecting for it?? Would any of you opt for a V6-powered SS?


EDIT: I realize we aren't even driving our 2010, yet...but think about it.....

This is how I'm starting to think about the future of muscle cars. With engines becoming smaller and smaller, I don't think it'll be long before almost all cars use 4's (or even back to 3's), and v6's are high performance. I could even see the base vette having a v6 in the future...
- Xanthos

[The_Blur]

I'm sure some muscle car purists will start to chime on this issue, but I'm with the general consensus so far. V6s are generally more efficient and might produce better performance if there wasn't a limit out of the factory. When GM has a 400-hp V8 laying around, it wouldn't be a good marketing strategy to push a near-400-hp V6.

That is why my favorite sign of engine development is efficiency. If a V8 could be as efficient as a 4-banger, it could produce way more power than it already does. It might not sound the same, but we could be driving 400-hp V6s and 700-hp V8s if they're made to deliver the most power per gallon instead of just the most power. I'm sure the next generation of GM engines will continue this progressive trend of increasing performance and flexibility.

[Cubanaso]

Who is this? Is this a test? Dragoneye....?

LOL

With the gas prices as they are, how can we argue and like someone said when faced with "change or die" I also vote for CHANGE!!!!


BUT, this is where my friend dragon and me don't see eye to eye. I still think you can make a 2+2 light enough that GM's lovely V8 can hit 28mpg in the highway like I know the Vette can do (new EPA be damned).

Not to go off on the weight again, but my whole purpose and lust for the new Camaro was not just the looks but the dream I've had all my life of owning an American V8 (mainly, the lovely GM V8).

GM has been doing such a great job lately but there are two grips I have with them with the latest cars they have made me lust after.

G8
Camaro

No stick in the G8 GT (a young dad wanted a V8 RWD sports sadan) and, the handicap of the Camaro's weight on an otherwise VERY efficient V8.

So, I lust....I mean look at the Camaro (no, I mean lust who am I kidding) and think to myself if the dream of the V8 is dead then why go after it when the car you just mentioned...

"...and I mentioned in another thread that the Genises coupe got me thinking"

(YOU SAID IT NO ME, LOL)

...will give me RWD, good looks, good space inside, safety, options up the YING YANG, 306-310HP of 3545 pounds of economical (Genesis sadan with the same engine gets 18/27 while weighing 300 more pounds) goodness.

Sure, it's good looking but not good looking like the Camaro but if my dream centered around keeping the Camaro forever with maybe one of the last V8's made (non-hybrid) might be dead then why bother with the Camaro and its almost useless rear seats?

Why, cause I like GM?
Because I love the Camaro?
To be made more uncomfortable with my family/son?
To probably pay more!
To probably get worse fuel economy with gas at $4+ per gallon!

So...as much as I'd want it, is it the right and wise choice for me?


I bring this up in this thread dragon, because I think you are right in thinking about all of this. NO DOUBT, GM nailed the looks and apparently the quality and V6 engine but in the market we are in is the Camaro going to be a stillborn because it's arrived about 5 years too late?

So again, my vote is for change rather than death for the Camaro. I don't want to lose the V8 but more efficient packaging (weight/size/etc) might be what is needed.

I might get flamed over this, but you have to think about the long term life of the Camaro if you really love it...and I do.

[chadrcr]

Originally Posted by flaguy

In all reality, I truly don't think we are too far off from seeing this. I really can see the day where the base model camaro/mustang is a 4banger, mid model (SS/GT) is a turbocharged V6 and top end model (Z28/Cobra) is a twin turbo highly tuned V6.

Regulations and gas prices say this is the only way to maintain performance for the future.

But....people were probably saying the same thing back in the 80's too so I dunno.

I don't think it would be that bad of a deal either. Hell, look at the Supra...that's been kicking ass for decades

Interesting concept. 3500 lb 350 hp turbo V6 (Z/28)??? I would!

Back in the 80s we had no horsepower ( -200 ) AND poor gas mileage.... $1.45 per gal.
IF the Camaro ( which left us in 02 with 315 hp ) would have returned with only a 315 hp engine.... how many people would still have been GLAD it was back!?!? My 02 Z/28 was a lot of fun stock... easy to mod too. I am suprised how a lot of people are disappointed to ONLY get 422 hp (100 more than the last Camaro) of course there is never enough power!!! but a 100 + from the showroom.... 100 more than the gt
I am suprised that the BASE LS comes with almost as much hp as the gt... maybe we are a little spoiled ( or will be when we finally get our Camaro )

[pinkcamaro10]

I love the look of the car, it's by far the best looking car i have ever laid eyes on, and the interior... wow....

Dont get me wrong, i love me som V8 and the sound of it gives me chills.

but me personally................

It's not like im going to be racing or anything, so i would buy it with whatever engine.

[Cubanaso]

Pink, that's how a part of me feels. This beast is TOO DANG good looking to let it pass by without experiencing it.