Please GM...upgrade the pistons in the LSA

[Milk 1027]

Lets see how many want forged pistons? 3 members
How many dont care and dont want to pay the extra money to get forged for the 3 people demanding it? Everyone else


Rodimus, seems like the Body in White is exactly what you and your forged piston demanding friends need.

[GM4lyfe]

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

LOL, you use 2 terms that really clash with one another.

Max RWHP and relatively safe.

I see the LS3 crowd making well over 700 at the wheels. Very very impressive. Will it do that for a long time safely? Not in my opinion.

There is a guy on the Cadillac forum who is putting down 830 to the wheels with his CTS-V. Do I think that will last? No I don't. It's impossible to predict how people are going to drive these cars. Do I think that I could make 750 at the wheels and make it last? Being the optimist (and dreamer) that I am and knowing how I drive I would say yes it should hold up for awhile.

The problem is that there are novices out there who get all caught up in the bigger is better syndrome. Everyone now days want a dyno queen that will make 900 horsepower. Never mind that they could not use more than 500 at the wheels if their life depended on it. How many of your friends have a street car with over 800 horsepower at the wheels? I run in some pretty fast crowds and I can only count them on one hand. The cars are a pain in the butt to drive once you reach the higher power levels.

The actual number of people who will want that power is very low. Then the number of people who will actually build a car to use that power is even less as a percentage. Most high horsepower cars that I have seen sell have ended up wrecked because the new owner didn't realize the dynamics involved.
Who knows, maybe GM will step up and reconfigure the LSA. Don’t hold your breath.

Robin

Good post!

[HaveBlue]

Originally Posted by Super83Z

Everyone that quoted my posts I have one answer for you, I can guarantee none of you have ever done any engine work whatsoever. This post really isn't for you since its over your head. At leas Dragoneye is asking questions the rest of you don't know what your talking about but are spouting off like you do, that has to be the most annoying thing on the planet.

Well Number3 and Q-ship said it for me. You have NO idea who the people on this forum are and what they've done. I've been in this industry for 30 years. YOU may think you know about building a performance engine, and maybe you do. But you know nothing about Production engine building.

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

Well lest look at this.

Emissions certification excuse is a joke....because of all the year/mid year changes all cars go through. I don't even know if they would have to re cert an engine with almost identical pistons. Anybody ever hear of piston rings?

More expensive? Thats debatable. I would happily pay a couple extra hundred for a fully forged bottom end. Even if I was keeping it stock.

A non forged piston and a forged piston...which cost $300 more..which would you go with?

Maybe I was too subtle. I mentioned nothing about emissions "certification". I was referring to emissions "compliance". You build a 800+hp Z28 and it will no longer be a legal street car. I know, I know, who cares the EPA won't come after anyone. That's what the motorcycle guys said right before their $275,000 fines.

Cost. Do you have ANY idea what an UltraLight Mahle forging costs? Their not going to throw some off the shelf crap in this motor.

You two act like it's an ultimatum to GM, "forged pistons or I'm not buying it" FINE, don't. The reality is it's more like "This is how we will built it, IF we build it."
The government is trying damn hard to make these cars go away. Enjoy them while you can.


PS, Robin, thank you for your posts. Of coarse you are dead on and in a position to know. You have more patience than I do. I hope to see you at SEMA and say Hi.

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by Super83Z

Since you take his word for gold, here it is. Even he said it, the LSA is good for about the same as a LS3..............................take that for what its worth.

I will take his word for what its worth! I trust them when they say "The supercharged LSA motor is the real deal"

Originally Posted by Hennessey Performance

HPE has been tweaking the LSA motor in the new CTS-V for the last 10 months and we have built dozens of cars with 600, 650 and over 700 hp.
The supercharged LSA motor is the real deal.

The Camaro is not being built for YOU. It is being built for the masses. Stock will be more than enough for majority of the people who buy this car.

[Mythic]

Does the LSA Need forged piston... NO

Prior to going into production the LSA spent many many hours in design, development, testing and stress testing.

Stock its putting down 556 hp at the crank and has to last at least GMs powertrain warrantee period.

If you don't trust the engineers, you can trust the bean counters here.

The vast majority of buyers are going to have the Z/28 for bragging rights.
A small number are going go out and PLAY with it.
A statistically insignificant number of buyers are going to push it to the wall.

If the LSA goes into the Z/28 AND you want it to make more power, put up your OWN money and shut up about it.

The arguments for swapping out a couple components for ones that are only a little bit more expesnive are stupid.

You what thats called? Its call feature creep.

There is almost no part on the engine that couldn't be replaced with something that would make it run faster stronger etc.

Real world scenario under open conditions:
1 We'll swap part A for B its only $200 more.
2 Sweet everyone will go for that.
1 Oh Oh lets also swap Part C for D, that only another $300
2 Riiight that'll be killer.
1 Hey while were doing that lets swap parts E-L for parts M-T. That's only another $100 per part
2 Awesome noone could deny that would make this a sceamer of an engine.
....

Eventually you get to the point that even the block is forged titanium, weighs 100lbs fully built, can be used as both a nitro methane funny car / grocery getter and costs $100k

Guarranteed, where you say stop thats as expensive as I want, somone else is clammoring for the next part you don't want to pay for.

If YOU don't want the LSA as is, fine no skin off my nose. Buy an SS get the stock LS3 get your own forged pistons, crank, cam, and 2.6L Blower and put down just short of lethal HP if you want.

[99-LS1-SS]

Originally Posted by Milk 1027

Lets see how many want forged pistons? 3 members
How many dont care and dont want to pay the extra money to get forged for the 3 people demanding it? Everyone else


Rodimus, seems like the Body in White is exactly what you and your forged piston demanding friends need.

What I want and expect are totally different. IF GM builds the Z/28 AND they put a supercharged motor in the Z/28 I wouldn't expect it to be the LS9. I would REALLY be happy if it was but, I would also be very happy with the LSA. I want the forged internals but, like I said, I don't expect it and I won't be disappointed if it doesn't come with them. I'm just wishful thinking out loud.

[jimmyallgm]

wow talk about beating a subject to death!!!< case and piont forged is better, will gm do it, NO!!! end of story, thank you come again

[nfamous209]

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

Hmm last I checked GM was making replacement exhaust and intakes for the SS...surely they didnt expect people to want to mod the car.

This isnt a BMW or some new kid on the block. The Camaro has and always will be a performance car that most people buy with the intent of modding.

Given the 5th gen has attracted a lot of new commers that have no idea about camaros, but just want to own the happening car...they will sell them in a year or so...where it will get bought and modded.

Honestly how many lt1/ls1 camaros have you seen for sale that have 0 mods done to them


By gm not putting forged pistons in the camaro....is essentially bringing a knife to a gun fight.

As for emissions...again, they dont test cars when they are cold. The test them when they are warmed up. They dont put headers on cars from the factory because it costs more than a cast manifold. Not because of emissions. LOL where do you guys come up with this?

So the GT500 has a hard time passing emissions?

yes cuz an intake and exhaust and shorty headers makes insane amount of power. ur complaining that the 40k car doesnt have forged pistons, i'll pass on the forged pistons and rather have a nicer quality interior. give me better materials. soft touch materials ala bmw, lexus, mercedes. 40k car should have interior materials and quality to that of a 40k car. engine will already be capable of 700+whp and who really needs more then that for the STREET.

[nfamous209]

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

Sorry, but that is the lamest post I have ever read in my entire life.

have u read 95% of ur posts on here, css.net and jbody forums? lol ur sig defines u

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

LOL, you use 2 terms that really clash with one another.

Max RWHP and relatively safe.

I see the LS3 crowd making well over 700 at the wheels. Very very impressive. Will it do that for a long time safely? Not in my opinion.

There is a guy on the Cadillac forum who is putting down 830 to the wheels with his CTS-V. Do I think that will last? No I don't. It's impossible to predict how people are going to drive these cars. Do I think that I could make 750 at the wheels and make it last? Being the optimist (and dreamer) that I am and knowing how I drive I would say yes it should hold up for awhile.

The problem is that there are novices out there who get all caught up in the bigger is better syndrome. Everyone now days want a dyno queen that will make 900 horsepower. Never mind that they could not use more than 500 at the wheels if their life depended on it. How many of your friends have a street car with over 800 horsepower at the wheels? I run in some pretty fast crowds and I can only count them on one hand. The cars are a pain in the butt to drive once you reach the higher power levels.

The actual number of people who will want that power is very low. Then the number of people who will actually build a car to use that power is even less as a percentage. Most high horsepower cars that I have seen sell have ended up wrecked because the new owner didn't realize the dynamics involved.
Who knows, maybe GM will step up and reconfigure the LSA. Don’t hold your breath.

Robin

Fantastic entry...and truly, a real-world perspective. "Dyno Queen" was a great way to describe it, because it's absolutely true.

Bigger is not always better, and I salute you, Robin -- for taking the time and having the sense to point that out. For those of you who doubt that philosophy, go read a review on the new 700-some hp Super Snake....read how "great" it is to drive outside of burning your tires off with a mere blip of the throttle........

Originally Posted by Number 3

The problem YOU seem to be having......oh and I've done "work" on engines and done engineering work on engines......is you keep trying to make your point by making your point with "this is a glaring oversight". First, we don't know the specs. so this should be as I stated earlier, a gentlemanly discussion. But you keep trying to point it out as a failure by GM that somehow you know more than all the powertrain engineers at GM do and if just sit and listen to you we'll all be the wiser for it.

No one is saying that the forged piston isn't stronger. That's why it is in the LS9 application. But for the HP it makes, the hypereutectic piston is more than fine for the LSA. It has many benefits that you keep poo pooing. Cost is one. For a lot of buyers, in fact most buyers a highly refined and quiet engine is a good thing. You want to trade off the ability for a very few customers to overboost their engines at the expense of those other benefits.

There is a reason why the crate cost for an LS9 is about 5 grand more than an LSA and you are hitting right on the point. It is making 100 HP more and to do it you need even stronger internals.

You clearly know what you are talking about...............it's just a shame you keep hammering that this would be a colosal failure by GM to release the LSA and not put in forged pistons. And you just keep discounting every ration answer we try to give you.

And for you to refer to the LSA as a grenade with the pin pulled? You better have acess to a lot of different data than I get to look at every day. It simply isn't true

I can't help but stand by the experts by default. I have to believe these guys know a little bit about this engine than we do.

Like, Number 3 said...nobody is saying that forged pistons aren't strong...or that it wouldn't benefit that small (VERY small) percentage of people who would need them...what we're saying, is that there reasons not to go this route as well.

[rodimus prime]

Originally Posted by nfamous209

yes cuz an intake and exhaust and shorty headers makes insane amount of power. ur complaining that the 40k car doesnt have forged pistons, i'll pass on the forged pistons and rather have a nicer quality interior. give me better materials. soft touch materials ala bmw, lexus, mercedes. 40k car should have interior materials and quality to that of a 40k car. engine will already be capable of 700+whp and who really needs more then that for the STREET.

Your saying that if they forge the pistons they have to cutback on the interior now? Im plenty happy with the interior as it is. See how that works.

This isnt a bmw, volvo, infinity, lexus or Jaguar, its a camaro...performance comes first and foremost. The average z28 guy is going to feel stupid when the ss guys running maggies and turbos and vortechs are putting out just as much power as them for less coin. But they will have a differnt hood.

In all honesty I wont buy a z28 either way, because I cant afford it. The camaro is supposed to be a cheap best bang for the buck car. Not a caddy. Id be willing to bet that the guys that are okay with a lesser motor are also the ones crying about it getting a 4 star front crash rating though.

Forged is better plain and simple, and as a consumer if you didnt demand the most for your money something is wrong with you. Im not saying the car wont be nice or fast, ect ect, but why wouldnt you want the best components for it. I bought a Camaro because it was a better car vs a Mustang GT. People that are not going to want to mod the cars will do the same thing when the z28 comes out and see that the GT500 is a better buy.

[nfamous209]

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

Your saying that if they forge the pistons they have to cutback on the interior now? Im plenty happy with the interior as it is. See how that works.

This isnt a bmw, volvo, infinity, lexus or Jaguar, its a camaro...performance comes first and foremost. The average z28 guy is going to feel stupid when the ss guys running maggies and turbos and vortechs are putting out just as much power as them for less coin. But they will have a differnt hood.

In all honesty I wont buy a z28 either way, because I cant afford it. The camaro is supposed to be a cheap best bang for the buck car. Not a caddy. Id be willing to bet that the guys that are okay with a lesser motor are also the ones crying about it getting a 4 star front crash rating though.

Forged is better plain and simple, and as a consumer if you didnt demand the most for your money something is wrong with you. Im not saying the car wont be nice or fast, ect ect, but why wouldnt you want the best components for it. I bought a Camaro because it was a better car vs a Mustang GT. People that are not going to want to mod the cars will do the same thing when the z28 comes out and see that the GT500 is a better buy.

no its not but it costs damn near the price of one. for a few grand more i can go get a twin turbo bmw that with a tune gets 400whp, has way better interior quality.

i'm not arguing that forged pistons arent better yes they are. but the engine is already capable of more power then 99% of the people who modify cars will need. plain and simple 99% of the people who mod cars will be extremely happy with 700-800whp and will stop there. cuz honestly after that the car will be kinda useless on the street. that 1% thats going to go above that will most likely be doing a stroker thus already forging the engine, probably swapping to a massive 4.0+L twinscrew or twin turbo.

like i'd be more then happy with 700whp capable engine but give me better interior material. i'm not saying give me ferrari or lambo quality, but give me the quality of what other cars in the same price range have. soft touch, nicer quality. design, gm's designs i like, its simple. but give me nice quality. give me real quality leathers. shit throw some suede here in there. no hard plastics. thats where gm is failing at. even the vette has hard plastic interior. hard plastic = garbage = cracks real fast.

and as far as z28 owners feeling stupid. umm yeah sure, the SS already costs damn near 40k, maggie installed is another 8-9k that gives u 530whp average. nice more power then a stock z28. but once that ss wants to play at 700whp then have fun replacing rods and pistons, cuz a stock internal z28 will be able to handle that type of power. so in the end uve spent more on ur SS for the same power the z28 is making w/ a blower swap.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

People that are not going to want to mod the cars will do the same thing when the z28 comes out and see that the GT500 is a better buy.

Can you explain this one? I'm just not sure what you mean. Why would people not interested in modification see a GT500 as a better buy due to pistons?

[GM4lyfe]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I can't help but stand by the experts by default. I have to believe these guys know a little bit more about this engine than we do.

Like, Number 3 said...nobody is saying that forged pistons aren't strong...or that it wouldn't benefit that small (VERY small) percentage of people who would need them...what we're saying, is that there reasons not to go this route as well.

I agree.
I appreciate when the guys that know come on here and set the word straight, lot of the things that Number3 and Q-ship said has been said before and beaten to death and fallen on deaf ears. I agree with everything they have said. I come on here trying to help people understand from my perspective/experience as a "grease monkey" and that does not work. I give up.