Poll: Forged pistons & Rods in Z 28?

[Super83Z]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

nothing like blaming a car company for not making a product survive the rigors of being highly modified beyond what they advertise and sell. . .


if you want to play with real power, then you need to do your research replace the weak links and then go for the real power. I will guarantee that most SS owners think they can slap a supercharger on their car push 700 horses and not expect to do anything with the clutch (if it's a manual), rear end or the like. but yet I guess it's GM's mediocrity for not supplying a clutch that can withstand those types of power levels. go for no responsibility on the owner!!!

You are comparing apples to dogsh*t. Whats easier to change a clutch or pistons? Which affects driveability? I don't expect a factory clutch to take unlimited abuse as it is an item designed to wear. A piston is not an item that is designed to wear. It is an incredibly involved and costly part to replace. A clutch can be done in a matter of hours. Your not even in the same ballpark.

I don't care if the clutch can take the power, but I don't want the gears in the transmission to made out of paper mache.

I am sure GM is going to use the hypereutectic and have to live down another run of embarrassment. I just want the Camaro to be all it can be in its full potential, not neutered in a critical area because "people aren't going to race all their cars." Thats what they said about the CTS-V, now look at the horrendous crap they are getting about the wheel-hop.

Its too bad Camaro has always been my car, but Ford is really showing GM how it should be done. In more ways than one from avoiding bankruptcy, making money and overall not making bonehead decisions.

Every excuse made not to put them in just doesn't make sense. Cost is such a small factor there is no way that can be the reason($45k+ car). Forged pistons now can come with offset pins so start-up noise is not a factor. Its not a Cadillac so a mild bump in NVH is not a factor.

One of my favorite quotes from an insider on another board:

Throw a suspect bottom end in a car that in many cases will be modded within hours of delivery by many customers. Then it'll be the 10-bolt all over again, and they'll take an epic beating relative to the Ford in the performance aftermarket, and all that money they THOUGHT they were going to make will evaporate.

Stuff like that never makes it on to a bean-counter spreadsheet, gents. Lutz would know the difference and understand the point, but he's gone...

How many 2010 SS Camaro's were filled up with regular gas at the dealership?

Look at the immense popularity and resale value of the 03-04 Terminator Cobras, if they didn't have that beefy bottom end it would just be another Mudstain.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Super83Z

You are comparing apples to dogsh*t. Whats easier to change a clutch or pistons? Which affects driveability? I don't expect a factory clutch to take unlimited abuse as it is an item designed to wear. A piston is not an item that is designed to wear. It is an incredibly involved and costly part to replace. A clutch can be done in a matter of hours. Your not even in the same ballpark.

I don't care if the clutch can take the power, but I don't want the gears in the transmission to made out of paper mache.

I am sure GM is going to use the hypereutectic and have to live down another run of embarrassment. I just want the Camaro to be all it can be in its full potential, not neutered in a critical area because "people aren't going to race all their cars." Thats what they said about the CTS-V, now look at the horrendous crap they are getting about the wheel-hop.

Its too bad Camaro has always been my car, but Ford is really showing GM how it should be done. In more ways than one from avoiding bankruptcy, making money and overall not making bonehead decisions.

Every excuse made not to put them in just doesn't make sense. Cost is such a small factor there is no way that can be the reason($45k+ car). Forged pistons now can come with offset pins so start-up noise is not a factor. Its not a Cadillac so a mild bump in NVH is not a factor.

One of my favorite quotes from an insider on another board:

How many 2010 SS Camaro's were filled up with regular gas at the dealership?

Look at the immense popularity and resale value of the 03-04 Terminator Cobras, if they didn't have that beefy bottom end it would just be another Mudstain.

LOL - I'm trying to find a way to counter-point your statements, but can't I guess I can see why the forged slugs didn't make it into CTS-V, but those NVH concerns shouldn't be as high for Z28, IMVHO. Who's really not going to do even simple bolt-ons for this car?! I guess I should stop trying to argue what I think GM's thinking, lol. I'm sure it comes down to cost, almost more than anything else, but I really do think Z28 needs to at least meet and beat the GT500 on every level. I can look past the factory accessory/performance part aspect of things, but it'd certainly be nice to have a bottom end that can support a lot more power. I won't take anything from LSA, but it'd be nice to have the headroom of LS9

[Scarrzz]

Originally Posted by radz28

LOL - I'm trying to find a way to counter-point your statements, but can't I guess I can see why the forged slugs didn't make it into CTS-V, but those NVH concerns shouldn't be as high for Z28, IMVHO. Who's really not going to do even simple bolt-ons for this car?! I guess I should stop trying to argue what I think GM's thinking, lol. I'm sure it comes down to cost, almost more than anything else, but I really do think Z28 needs to at least meet and beat the GT500 on every level. I can look past the factory accessory/performance part aspect of things, but it'd certainly be nice to have a bottom end that can support a lot more power. I won't take anything from LSA, but it'd be nice to have the headroom of LS9

Exactly where my thoughts are, RadZ28.

It changes my perception of the value.

It would only cost GM the difference between the price of the parts and it would be another buzz factor in the media.

That greater capacity would definitely be a selling point for any folks that have even considered modding it a bit, and for a lot more that just want to but probably won't mod - at least while it's still under warranty. It keeps the options open.

.

[Super83Z]

Originally Posted by radz28

LOL - I'm trying to find a way to counter-point your statements, but can't I guess I can see why the forged slugs didn't make it into CTS-V, but those NVH concerns shouldn't be as high for Z28, IMVHO. Who's really not going to do even simple bolt-ons for this car?! I guess I should stop trying to argue what I think GM's thinking, lol. I'm sure it comes down to cost, almost more than anything else, but I really do think Z28 needs to at least meet and beat the GT500 on every level. I can look past the factory accessory/performance part aspect of things, but it'd certainly be nice to have a bottom end that can support a lot more power. I won't take anything from LSA, but it'd be nice to have the headroom of LS9

I hear ya. I just want the Camaro to be the best it can be not just a bunch of "well if's" like it always has been. Once the 3rd gen came out the Camaro has always gotten the cheapest crap GM can find to put into it. The 5th gen changed a lot of that and I just want to see it continue.

There is no reason for the Z28 to be saddled with inferior parts when Ford can do it so easily with a much more costly(to build) DOHC engine.

I thought GM wanted this car to be class-leading and world class not still quite a bit behind what the competition is offering. Now is the time to bitch about this stuff as GM can still do the right thing. If it doesn't come with forged slugs, I'll probably still get one, but it will not be new. I am not spending that kind of dough on a new SS with a blower on it. Used market here I come.

[ipimpthisc]

i say forged all the way...make it and we will come

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Super83Z

I hear ya. I just want the Camaro to be the best it can be not just a bunch of "well if's" like it always has been. Once the 3rd gen came out the Camaro has always gotten the cheapest crap GM can find to put into it. The 5th gen changed a lot of that and I just want to see it continue.

There is no reason for the Z28 to be saddled with inferior parts when Ford can do it so easily with a much more costly(to build) DOHC engine.

I thought GM wanted this car to be class-leading and world class not still quite a bit behind what the competition is offering. Now is the time to bitch about this stuff as GM can still do the right thing. If it doesn't come with forged slugs, I'll probably still get one, but it will not be new. I am not spending that kind of dough on a new SS with a blower on it. Used market here I come.

See - I've bashed the 4th Gen relative to the 5th Gen for a while. It's not like the 4th Gen wasn't a performer; hardly! To me, the goal was to go fast on the cheap and I think it did. Coming from '95 and '02 Z28s, I think it's fair to say there were some spots more money was put into more than others. Is that a bad thing? I think, for the time, no - it wasn't. I believe the market has been changing though, and I know I certainly have. I don't think it's as much as me getting older as it is that I'm developing a better idea on quality means to me. Though the 4th Gen had great engines and trannys, those 10-bolts weren't friends to many power junkies. I guess they never took the car to the track on DRs, lol.

I think we have to be a little careful with our words, though. Sometimes our enthusiasm can come across as b*tching - and b*tching is just not necessary. There are many people on Team Camaro that are just as enthusiastic as we are. They know all the odds and ends of the business and I'm fully confident we'll get as much quality and content as can be provided. We really know nothing about the car so far except for what we can see. No one's seen LSA under the hood yet (yeah - I went there, lol ) but we already see upgraded brakes, cooling, wheels and tires and think of what we haven't actually seen I am completely certain that the car will perform. We already see improvements are in the works.

I think it'd be GREAT to have a assembly line-built LS9, maybe minus the expensive Ti rods; but with some stout forged steel ones. GM built that engine, along with LSA (which, according to reports, performed VERY well during durability tests), to run with exotics of their respective classes all day long. I won't pretend to understand all the complexities in how all this works, but there has to be a reason for the way GM does things (financial aside - I don't think that's necessarily related, per se). With the interior improvements coming, and Z28 and the ragtop coming down the street, I can totally see GM giving us a class-leading and world class car.

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by Super83Z

You are comparing apples to dogsh*t. Whats easier to change a clutch or pistons? Which affects driveability? I don't expect a factory clutch to take unlimited abuse as it is an item designed to wear. A piston is not an item that is designed to wear. It is an incredibly involved and costly part to replace. A clutch can be done in a matter of hours. Your not even in the same ballpark.

I don't care if the clutch can take the power, but I don't want the gears in the transmission to made out of paper mache.

I am sure GM is going to use the hypereutectic and have to live down another run of embarrassment. I just want the Camaro to be all it can be in its full potential, not neutered in a critical area because "people aren't going to race all their cars." Thats what they said about the CTS-V, now look at the horrendous crap they are getting about the wheel-hop. the cost is going to be greater then just the parts. it's going to have to survive durability testing and certification. . .which costs more money. how much I'm not exactly sure how that would translate to us. depends on how many units they plan to sell and such. it's just not as cut and dry as swapping out a part.

Its too bad Camaro has always been my car, but Ford is really showing GM how it should be done. In more ways than one from avoiding bankruptcy, making money and overall not making bonehead decisions.

Every excuse made not to put them in just doesn't make sense. Cost is such a small factor there is no way that can be the reason($45k+ car). Forged pistons now can come with offset pins so start-up noise is not a factor. Its not a Cadillac so a mild bump in NVH is not a factor.

One of my favorite quotes from an insider on another board:



How many 2010 SS Camaro's were filled up with regular gas at the dealership?

Look at the immense popularity and resale value of the 03-04 Terminator Cobras, if they didn't have that beefy bottom end it would just be another Mudstain.

I only used the clutch because it was the first thing to come to mind that would go. but as your post has clearly shown the wheel hop in the CTS-V is a huge issue. there will clearly be other issues with a high horsepowered car.

what was it that the current SS rear end is capable of 650 lbs ft tq? clearly an SS owner wanting to surpass a Z28's performance will have to replace/reinforce the rear end. is it a screw up that gm only made a rear end that can support just that much tq? guess so by your reasoning.

I'm not saying that I don't want forged bottom ends. believe me I would love to see it also. I just don't want the car costing 60k just because of forged pistons. I can barely afford 50k much less a 60k z28. if GM can produce a new engine (ls8) with forged internals and the smaller blower from the lsa at the same price point as the gt500; I'm all for that. point is it's not just swapping out pistons for forged. they have to do some R&D to find the right pistons they want, then get those tested and certified. that will raise the cost even more then just swapping pistons. the LSA is already a functioning engine. it's already 7k more then an ls3. do you want an engine that costs 13k more then an ls3? which then increases the price of the z28 from possible low 50k to mid 50's or higher?

[Super83Z]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

I only used the clutch because it was the first thing to come to mind that would go. but as your post has clearly shown the wheel hop in the CTS-V is a huge issue. there will clearly be other issues with a high horsepowered car.

Absolutely and grenading pistons should be at the top.

what was it that the current SS rear end is capable of 650 lbs ft tq? clearly an SS owner wanting to surpass a Z28's performance will have to replace/reinforce the rear end. is it a screw up that gm only made a rear end that can support just that much tq? guess so by your reasoning.

Stop guessing, again its apples to dogsh*t. What can break in a rear-end? Gears? Half-shafts? Relatively inexpensive to beef up compared to beefing up the pistons once the engine is together and running.

I am concerned about having to pull the engine and replace the pistons. That is a whole hell of a lot easier said than done. We're talking taking off the intake, heads, oil pan.....................its almost broken down to just a block. You can leave the crank and cam in. Which you might as well change the cam since your doing all this. That is MAJOR work. Never mind you should hone the block and probably need a machine shop to swap the pistons over the to the rods.

Taking apart a rear-end? I recently swapped rears in my 1999 z28 I had to swap axles, backing plates and all the brake parts over. I did it in a half a day for relatively low cost. Tearing down an engine is going to require a slew of new gaskets, piston rings(your not reusing them) and a ton of time.

I'm not saying that I don't want forged bottom ends. believe me I would love to see it also. I just don't want the car costing 60k just because of forged pistons. I can barely afford 50k much less a 60k z28. if GM can produce a new engine (ls8) with forged internals and the smaller blower from the lsa at the same price point as the gt500; I'm all for that. point is it's not just swapping out pistons for forged. they have to do some R&D to find the right pistons they want, then get those tested and certified. that will raise the cost even more then just swapping pistons. the LSA is already a functioning engine. it's already 7k more then an ls3. do you want an engine that costs 13k more then an ls3? which then increases the price of the z28 from possible low 50k to mid 50's or higher?

The GT500 starts at $49K. The Z28 is probably going to be a little bit more. So its already in the low $50K department.

There is no excuse for Ford to offer a fully forged, supercharged engine at the $49K price point and for some reason GM can't do it for any less than $60K.

When you were typing that, it didn't seem off the wall to you?

You have to stop saying that is going to cost all this money to do it. Its not the case in any way at all. Ford is proving that over and over again.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Super83Z

Absolutely and grenading pistons should be at the top.

Stop guessing, again its apples to dogsh*t. What can break in a rear-end? Gears? Half-shafts? Relatively inexpensive to beef up compared to beefing up the pistons once the engine is together and running.

I'm sure I can find it somewhere if I took the time to look, but it was posted that the rear WAS engineered to handle that power. Of course, I'm sure that doesn't account for sticky tires on a prep'd track, but GM doesn't sell road cars to handle the rigors of a racetrack. Who does that in a mass production car?

I am concerned about having to pull the engine and replace the pistons. That is a whole hell of a lot easier said than done. We're talking taking off the intake, heads, oil pan.....................its almost broken down to just a block. You can leave the crank and cam in. Which you might as well change the cam since your doing all this. That is MAJOR work. Never mind you should hone the block and probably need a machine shop to swap the pistons over the to the rods.

Taking apart a rear-end? I recently swapped rears in my 1999 z28 I had to swap axles, backing plates and all the brake parts over. I did it in a half a day for relatively low cost. Tearing down an engine is going to require a slew of new gaskets, piston rings(your not reusing them) and a ton of time.

The GT500 starts at $49K. The Z28 is probably going to be a little bit more. So its already in the low $50K department.

There is no excuse for Ford to offer a fully forged, supercharged engine at the $49K price point and for some reason GM can't do it for any less than $60K.

I'd still like to be able to understand this, too. Why can Ford develop that engine to handle all that power for that price point? I THINK I have an idea, but I'd never really ever get an answer that I could understand. I'd like to know if the IRS and stiff body have anything to do with that; I'm sure that's where some cost is, because it has to cost more to develop that IRS than it was for that SRA.

When you were typing that, it didn't seem off the wall to you?

You have to stop saying that is going to cost all this money to do it. Its not the case in any way at all. Ford is proving that over and over again.

Why is that? Ford is proving that it can penny-pinch in other areas of the car in order to have all that power. Is that something, I personally, could live with? Sure. I think their amenities and options and accessories for the GT500 really fall in-line with the kind of car I want. Were I not a Camaro-guy, I'd be all over the GT500; that's not the case . I, personally, think GM has built a better overall car (maybe with small exception to the interior).

Anyways - Ford isn't proving much in the way of advancing the GT500, to me, except for the power and now the efficiency of the latest car. The wire-arc foo-foo is really moot for me and I could care less about four-valves blah-blah-blah. Wiki' says that that technology is around 100-years old. Timing advancements aside, I see no benefit for all this complexity and weight, and I prefer simple, efficient power. I really don't think Ford is proving anything more than they are committed to making as much power as they can get away with. GM could do the same if they wanted to skimp out on other areas of the car. Good for GM for giving us as much as they can at a reasonable price.

JMVHO.

[BoostedX2]

Originally Posted by radz28

Why is that? Ford is proving that it can penny-pinch in other areas of the car in order to have all that power. Is that something, I personally, could live with? Sure. I think their amenities and options and accessories for the GT500 really fall in-line with the kind of car I want. Were I not a Camaro-guy, I'd be all over the GT500; that's not the case . I, personally, think GM has built a better overall car (maybe with small exception to the interior).

Anyways - Ford isn't proving much in the way of advancing the GT500, to me, except for the power and now the efficiency of the latest car. The wire-arc foo-foo is really moot for me and I could care less about four-valves blah-blah-blah. Wiki' says that that technology is around 100-years old. Timing advancements aside, I see no benefit for all this complexity and weight, and I prefer simple, efficient power. I really don't think Ford is proving anything more than they are committed to making as much power as they can get away with. GM could do the same if they wanted to skimp out on other areas of the car. Good for GM for giving us as much as they can at a reasonable price.

JMVHO.

In addition, the GT500 engine is hand built, and the LSA is not, that has to save some $$$....

[Scarrzz]

.
Just another consideration to throw into the mix here...

I really respect all of the mechanical knowledge that goes into building these cars at this level of performance and dependability. I also appreciate the car-lovers who work on and modify their own dream machines... especially the folks who know what they're doing to take their cars beyond what would be possible in a production vehicle.

But please consider that even those of us who don't take their cars apart in their garages and put them back together can be passionate about them.

Some of us, many of us, have knowledge sets that don't transfer to automotive/mechanical expertise. I wouldn't want an Air Traffic Controller to do brain surgery on me, or a Neurosurgeon to repair my car, etc.

Those of us who don't disassemble/reassemble engines for work or fun will have to use $$ for any changes we want to make or change professions to be a mechanic/automotive engineer.

As for myself, the 50k price point is at the upper limit of plausibility for me and I'd like to have the option of upping the horsepower later without worrying that a piston will go BOOM. That one critical component would make the difference between leaving a car stock, or making it my own.

Who knows, maybe GM wants us to leave the cars totally stock, where their components are balanced for durability. That way they can very rightfully brag about their engineering prowess.

But I don't feel like I've taken possession of a car until I've done something to make it uniquely mine...

There are so many variables in these questions. I just know what I want.

.

[Super83Z]

The warranty is finite. GM only has to worry about it for a few years.

The reputation of the 5th gen Z28 will last forever.

[Mr. Wyndham]

I think the car...AND engine...won't disappoint.

I, like everyone else, have my opinions one what "needs" to be done. But there's just something in the wind saying the car is going to be a knockout hit in every way. I can't wait.

[leviticus88]

The fact is, nothing is better and more reliable than a Factory Built and Spec'ed Motor. No Matter Who or What Aftermarket Company is Producing or Modifiying Parts, the Factory Designed Stuff will always have more R and D and will outlast the aftermarket options.

So, why not have a very strong factory bottom end that might never need to be opened up and can still handle major power? There isn't a reason not too!

Spend 500-1500 now and save 5000-10000+ later on!

I'm all for Forged and getting the best quality upfront as possible!