05-13-2011, 01:07 PM | #15 | |
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__________________ Originally Posted by FbodFather My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors...... ........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!__________________ Camaro Fest sub-forum |
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05-13-2011, 02:09 PM | #16 | |
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GM has pulled the Camaro from the pony car market before, no shame in doing so while they benchmark the new Mustang. Grand Am is reaching huge spectator counts each month. I think the Z28 will do pretty well there, not saying that they will bump the Mustang and BMW, but they will definitely draw some attention. If I read the rules correctly, the Camaro could be DQ'd unless they meet the minimum production car sales requirement and that would let those Camaro teams seek employment elsewhere. Some straight up, factory support would really help... |
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05-13-2011, 04:30 PM | #17 | ||
I used to be Dragoneye...
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When enthusiasts saw this car, it was the essence of Camaro...a 40-year old story told in 2006. They (we) demanded the production model be built, and not deviate. The engineers overcame enormous compromises to make a car that looks like this still perform the way we expect, and for that they should be applauded - but the bottom line is that the design has sold this car. When regular people see this car, they do 180s...approach the owners, etc, etc...370zs, Altima coupes, Audi TTs and S#'s BMWs, and yes even Mustangs tend to blend in with the rest. The design of Camaro is SO good, it's even made its way into other Chevrolet's in the form of family design cues. So if I appear apprehensive of an "anything goes" approach with regards to the Camaro's design, it's because it's very difficult to alter a design as close to perfection as this and come out the other end successful. But don't mistake me for a part of this imaginary 1% you keep referring to. I don't expect the Camaro to stay frozen in time, nor do I want it to. I simply don't pretend to know what it should look like...it's a task far above my head. If there's a design group that can do it, though, they're in the Renaissance Center. In my very humble opinion, generally I'd like to see them nip/tuck the car in the same fashion that Camaro's and Corvettes (also think Aston Martins and Porches) have been redesigned for decades...evolutionary. And I'm sure they'll stay true to the simple elegance that defines the Chevrolet family design. Quote:
Firstly...if Fbodfather ever said anything directly related to a next-gen Camaro...it certainly wouldn't have been anything to interpret as an official statement. That's not to say that he can't - only that he doesn't do that...if I had to guess, somebody made some grandiose comment that warranted a few "......" from the holder of the 2x4. Secondly...your commentary on profitability has been entertaining...but we don't know nearly enough to make such assertions. Only they know. And only they can make the decisions and choices you present yourself to be privvy to. Maybe they already recouped the R&D on the car. Or maybe they never will. Perhaps the 6th gen will have such a low cost of development thanks to the ATS/CTS that it won't matter, anyways. The bottom line is we don't know...and it's rather silly to use shaky assumptions as a foundation to draw further conclusions. Finally...let's leave the Mustang chest-thumping out of the ZL1 and Z28 specific forums...(I'd say the site, but that's too much to wish for...). This is, however, the 'holy ground' of the site and I don't want to hear about non-existent mystical super-stangs in here. Whatever Ford chooses to do is their own business, and better suited to the other vehicles or off-topics section....or the versus section if it ever actually comes to pass.... |
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05-13-2011, 05:45 PM | #18 |
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Pill, you can rant all you want about the specific specs of the camaro--I have driven both and I will tell you that the Camaro EPITOMIZES a muscle car and the way I like to drive, the mustang is a smaller car for small people and the styling just does not Get it--just my very humble opinion..
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05-14-2011, 05:06 AM | #19 | |
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However, back to the Z28 designs. I stand by my post and believe that one of these cars, along with a mid-gen refresh is in the works. Its always good to save the best for last... |
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05-14-2011, 05:16 AM | #20 | |
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I would like to see the refresh get rid of some of the extra metal on the outside like Dragoneye said. It's also a very hard thing to do but if Ford can do it, I think GM can. I think that this Camaro really brings the front of the car into modern times, It's simple, functional and looks like a track athlete. It also takes the Camaro into another direction and would definitely make the older 5th Gens more exclusive. I think those headlights bring the 3rd Gen back a little... Last edited by thePill; 05-14-2011 at 05:26 AM. |
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05-14-2011, 06:04 AM | #21 | |
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05-14-2011, 06:21 AM | #22 | |
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Lets compare... Ford eventually went with the black and whites at the bottom. Good history lesson though... Last edited by thePill; 05-14-2011 at 06:36 AM. |
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05-14-2011, 06:29 AM | #23 |
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You see, the Mustang and Camaro are practically related.. Here some more from Robs 2004 batch, You will see the 50th Anniversary Mustang concept art in here, the black and whites half way down.... and the reason Ford went with the smaller styling, the current body lines of the 2010+ match the body lines of the 1964-1969 Mustang's. You are right about the new Mustang's looking smaller than they actually are (see bottom) That was no doubt very hard to do... I would like to see the 2013 Z28 match up with the 1969 Z28. That red Mustang would make a nice 2013 Z28, just change out the headlights, running pony of course and there ya go GM. The red one makes a nice nip/tucked 5th Gen...
Last edited by thePill; 05-14-2011 at 06:44 AM. |
05-14-2011, 06:56 AM | #24 |
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My question is, when the 5th Gen is refreshed, will the majority of 5th Gen owners accept it? I would like to think so, some may regret buying the current car. Some are kicking themselves for not waiting until the 2012 just for the options available. I still think that the refresh will meet with some resistance here on Camaro5 but the majority of new car buyers will love the redesign more than the current car. That's what refreshes do, they attract attention to a tired model. The convertible is technically a refresh and it was about 50/50 accepted on here. This gives GM an opportunity to redesign the car to be functional and not just appealing to a limited number of consumers. If GM is starting to make some profit, why not keep the Camaro fresh each year with improvements? Even though the majority of sales are already out the window, limit production a bit (already in the works) and only build to the demand. The Challenger is laughed at every month but I guarantee they sell what they build and profits per are a couple thousand dollars more than the Mustang and Camaro. It's a strange strategy but it works, they are doing less work and running away with more profits due to the higher MSRP. By 2013, this strategy will be in place at Oshawa...
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05-14-2011, 12:02 PM | #25 |
Don't Like it? Suggit.
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Gen 5 only has TWO production years under its belt. It needs no refreshing as of yet. Not really diggin the headlamp covers. Functionality over form every time, but this car deserves to have both.
I response to your most recent query: There will (not hypothetically. I know gen 6 is on the way.) be no buyer's remorse for me. I bought this car loving every inch of it, just as it is. The interior has already been "refreshed" for 2012, and only reinforces how happy I am to have a 2010.
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"Tops off, tach up baby- loud and proud!" A Camaro lover from day one- 1996 3.8 V6 Camaro, to 1996 5.7 LT1 Camaro Z28, to the sold 2002 5.7 LS1 Camaro SS, and NOW, a [I]6.2 L99 VR 2SS/RS: XS Power stainless full exhaust, Airaid CAI, BMR drop springs and sways, custom tune by Cal Speed- 411rwhp |
05-14-2011, 01:40 PM | #26 | |
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What were looking at is two more loooong years in the pony car market and the ZL1 will affect the market just as much as the Boss 302 did. Sales will hit the numbers hard and fast and after two months the numbers will go back to pre-ZL1 levels (more Boss 302's inc). The ZL1 is just too much of a beast to offer it at a reasonable MSRP especially with the gas guzzler tax. GM can safely sell 5500 and consumers will not have to pay the tax. Everybody thinks the GT500 evaded the gas guzzler tax, but it did NOT. The combined mpg were well below the 22.5 but, since Ford's production numbers were well below the amount that would initiate the tax (5500). The combination of the final mpg average and the total units sold, did not warrant the tax on the GT500. You can see this practiced with the CTS-V as well, the CTS-V's average mpg would actually tax the owner the maximum but since the total CTS-V's produced were only 9000 and some change, it set the CTS-V down an entire bracket, saving the consumer a lot of money. The ZL1 will not be sold in large numbers, the more they sell the more expensive it will be... and this is where the Z28 will succeed where the ZL1 did not. Vehicles like the Z28 can be sold in large quantities without penalties to the consumer or the manufacturer. I agree that the Camaro needs both form and function, form sells way more than function because 99% of new car buyers can't tell you what the grille is for. I suspected that even the simplest of alterations to the 5th Gen would be met with frowns and I can almost guarantee that any future refresh will be the same. Trying to convince that 1% of new car buyers (Camaro enthusiast) when the changes go public that it is the best design GM had up their sleeves is going to be tough. I doubt that the original 5th Gen guys will regret their purchase, main reason being is that they will most likely hate the refresh... and that's ok... it just goes to show you how great the original was. The refresh needs to be functional, race ready, aggressive and be more aerodynamic drag coefficient. The 5th Gen needs to pull in some championships or at least some more podiums, this is where car enthusiast begin to respect the car and become more interested, when the Camaro begins to collect trophies. It sucks that nobody likes the headlights on the Camaro GT.R's, I think that a grille that was flush with the lights would really round out the front end. I will experiment some with a couple of the pics and see if I can get anything out of them... |
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05-14-2011, 03:20 PM | #27 |
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You are not going to get much in the way that can not be changed structuralwise on this car. If I am not mistaken this cars got a short lifespan on its platform before it goes by by.
So it might only get those cosmetic upgrades..The tail lights will be one thing to get it..maybe a new hood or two, reworked fenders and front maybe. But I really see GM doing only small stuff. They already offer the heritage grill on the car..soo..its going to be small things..interior and colors.. and the race covers..worked on 4th gens not on that car. |
05-14-2011, 03:45 PM | #28 | |
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Gas guzzler tax isn't based on sales volume. Or do you honestly believe that Bentley sells over 5500 units each of the Arnage, Arnage RL, Azure, Brooklands, Continental Flying Spur, Continental GT, and Continental GTC? Because they all have a gas guzzler tax on them. The gas guzzler tax uses a different calculation method than the window sticker. If it did use the commonly advertised number, the Camaro SS and Mustang GT would get it too, since they get less than 22.5 combined which is the minimum you have to get to avoid the GG tax in the US. The way its calculated, it is roughly equal to what the highway mileage is for the car (on the newest GT500, its highway mileage is 23 mpg)
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__________________ Originally Posted by FbodFather My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors...... ........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!__________________ Camaro Fest sub-forum |
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