ZL1 1/4 mile time and ZLS vs BOSS!!!

[Grabber]

Here are some pics of my old Cobra.

Before I owned it.











I also have a couple of crappy cell phone vids of the car on the dyno briefly if anyone cares to see them, haha.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Grabber

Here are some pics of my old Cobra.

Before I owned it.











I also have a couple of crappy cell phone vids of the car on the dyno briefly if anyone cares to see them, haha.

That cage does wonders for the handling when mated with the bra tower braces. I can see why you miss it.

[BigDan]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The Shelby GT500 ain't no light weight vehicle. It weights more than the ZL1. The weight of the ZL1 had not been announced at the time of the post. We now know this is incorrect. If one pony car owns the other it is not the Camaro that is owned by Ford it is the Mustang that is owned by Chevrolet.

Its a good thing I bookmarked the thread in question.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...182436&page=24

Originally Posted by JusticePete

30 pounds for a larger engine cooloing system, a batch of additional coolers, bigger brakes, stronger diff, stronger tranny... Maybe they made them all out of ultra light weight unobtainium

We'll all see when the car is built and Ford issues the final specifications in a year of less, but I'll stand by my guess it is about the same weight as a ZL1. If it does come in only 30 pounds heavier feel free to humiliate me and my crystal ball with this post.

Yes I do think it will gain close to that amount of weight from the coolers and much more. 650 HP in a stock Mustang monocoque is not a good car. It is a too powerful engine in a too weak chassis and driveline. The people at SVT are very smart. If they don't know what I know from our development work on the road course version for Saleen, they can call me and for a small fee I'll give them a hand. When the 2013 is released it will be a very good car and much heavier than the current version.

Ford did say stronger tranny case, stronger diff case and more. The 1969 Shelby had far more motor than chassis. If Ford just stuffs a 650HP motor in the same car it will be 1969 all over again. They won't do that. They will do the Mustang right and that will increase the weight. I said it before and I'll say it again. The 2013 650 will be closer in weight to the ZL1 than most think. If my crystal ball is cracked, feel free to throw it in my face and laugh about this time next year.

[YourBlindingBias]

I see some lying going on, very sad :(

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

I see some lying going on, very sad :(

Please clarify your statement.

[YourBlindingBias]

"The weight of the ZL1 had not been announced at the time of the post."
It was november. I mean it's not lying that was kind of strong maybe you didn't read about it or something.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

"The weight of the ZL1 had not been announced at the time of the post."
It was november. I mean it's not lying that was kind of strong maybe you didn't read about it or something.

The announcement of weight wasn't an announcement of all - it was a leaked (or released) dealer ordering guide that listed the weight for the first time. This occurred in the very last week of October. I was unaware of it when I made the post.

What does it matter?

If I said the Mustang was built by aliens at Area 51, it would not change the limitations of the Mustang chassis. In the end, the 2013 Mustang will have the exact same limitations as the 2011 or 2010. The mechanical geometry of the three link limits the driver's ability to put down power in a corner along with a rear tire contact patch that is too small.

No matter how fast or how powerful a Mustang is now or maybe in the future, it sits on a dated technology chassis. The front control arm in mounted is a soup can sized rear bush that allows the front and to rise and dive like a rocking chair. The monocoque requires as many braces as a 4th gen Camaro. The rear floating caliper brakes belong in a 1968 Mustang. The four link was better than the current three link. The Cobra IRS better than both. Ford only Mustang Ford sells that is a complete car is the BOSS LS. They delete the rear seat and add a huge brace to band-aid the monoque. The BOSS LS has more rear rubber than the GT500 as though that makes any sense to anyone.

GM has years of experience with active suspension management. It is technology that Ford does not have. There is no way that Ford's Bilstein street and track switchable damping will act as a silver bullet and magically resolve the limitations of the current Mustang chassis.

Watching the shifting sands in this thread is frustrating. The BOSS LS was supposed to kick the ZL1's ass. It didn't. All we kept hearing during the development of the ZL1 was it will never be a BOSS LS beater. Now we hear well wait for the 2013 GT500. If you or anyone else cares to read what I have consistently written we know how to work around the limitations of both vehicles. we know how to make both a Mustang and Camaro out perform a Z06. We have done that at Pedders. Further I have consistently written that built to the max, the Mustang and Camaro are a virtual dead heat.

For the Ford fans, that isn't good enough. They seem to want to live in a pretend world where traction is not related to tire contact patch and Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren MP4-12C, and the ZR1 run on three link suspensions. FYI, they all use and IRS. I can't imagine why

How can an intelligent person look at the performance of the current Mustang, examine the data and not understand that HP is not the answer? The GT500 is faster in a single lap than a BOSS LS by a fraction of a second, yet the conclusion of those running the test is that they prefer the BOSS LS. Of course they do. The BOSS LS is a better complete automobile. The frame is well braced, allowing the suspension to work better and it has better traction as a package including more rubber. I'll say it one more time. I know where to find .5 seconds in the BOSS LS and so does Ford. We end up with a normally aspirated well balanced car that can out performs the GT500. If we were to take it a step further and crash test the BOSS LS at a lower ride height it would be much faster. Head to head right now GT500 to BOSS LS on a 20 lap run the BOSS LS will beat the GT500.

If you don't understand that, understand this. I want Chevy to build a normally aspirated version of the ZL1 and call it a Z/28. Maybe they will and maybe they won't so I went ahead with my friends at Lingenfelter to build the L/28. It is 590 at the rear wheels of normally aspirated power. We addressed all the weaknesses of the current 5th Gen chassis and built our version of the ultimate 5th Gen. There isn't a car built that doesn't have flaws in the chassis. They all do. Does this detract from the production ZL1? Not in the least. It is a phenomenal product and the most complete Camaro ever just as the BOSS LS is from Ford.

Here is are the questions --

1. Does a 285 have sufficient contact patch for 440, 550 and or 650 FWHP?
2. How do you get a three link to put down power coming out of the corners?
3. What braces are absolutely essential for the Mustang GT500 to perform as well as a BOSS LS on a road course?

Now if anyone would like to discuss this I'll be happy to continue. If the objective is to put lipstick on a pig and call it Kate Kate Beckinsale there is no point in continuing.

[ParisTNDude]

Geeeeeesssshhhhhh! It will be wonderful when the 2013 GT500 and the ZL1 are released to the general public...finally, then, all of the arm chair racing will cease! I guess it will create some whining from the Ford guys, but Chevy guys are used to it.

[ffrcobra_65]

Wow nice write up but meh, only one thing left...we wait for the real stuff to unfold in a couple of months then some can say "I told you so!"

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

Wow nice write up but meh, only one thing left...we wait for the real stuff to unfold in a couple of months then some can say "I told you so!"

*SNORE*

[Deki]

BOSS LS and the GT500 run the same size rear tire. Once again, you ignore the fact that substantial improvements were made to the 2011 GT500 over the 2010 and yet you keep bringing up that test. If the 2010 GT500 beat the Boss by a half a second the 2011 and 12 would be exponentially faster. The 2011 bested the 2010s time by 8 seconds at VIR with no added horsepower. That speaks volumes to the suspension tuning on the 2011+ GT500. Either way, time will tell, and if I'm wrong, you get your 5 bucks

[GT5Junkie]

Pete, do you not see the advantage of a car that makes MORE fly wheel horsepower but the SAME torque at the wheels? And do you not understand that that appears to be exactly what Ford is doing with the 2013 GT500?

You say the chassis can't handle more power, and that it will just make the traction worse, but what you don't seem to understand is that the revised gearing means that it ISN'T putting any more power to the wheels. The power to the wheels remains roughly the same, and due to the lower gearing you're able to remain in each gear longer. That means less gear changes. That means the ability to stay in lower gears for longer, directly resulting in increased acceleration. Both of those things translate to better overall acceleration with ZERO increase in traction problems (you can't have more traction problems if you're not putting more torque to the wheels).

Add to that, that they're not JUST doing that, torsen = better at getting power to the ground. More agressive suspension = better at getting power to the ground. More downforce = better at getting power to the ground.

Your posts in this thread repeatedly ignore all the other things that Ford is doing to the 2013 besides adding the hundred horsepower.

The announcement of weight wasn't an announcement of all - it was a leaked (or released) dealer ordering guide that listed the weight for the first time. This occurred in the very last week of October. I was unaware of it when I made the post.

So you thought the ZL1 was going to weigh 50 pounds more than the SS, and then you stated your guesstimate as solid fact? Seems reasonable.

When the 2013 GT500 runs 1.5+ seconds quicker than the 11/12 model at VIR, are you going to man up and admit that you were wrong?

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Deki

BOSS LS and the GT500 run the same size rear tire. Once again, you ignore the fact that substantial improvements were made to the 2011 GT500 over the 2010 and yet you keep bringing up that test.

If the 2010 GT500 beat the Boss by a half a second the 2011 and 12 would be exponentially faster. The 2011 bested the 2010s time by 8 seconds at VIR with no added horsepower. That speaks volumes to the suspension tuning on the 2011+ GT500. Either way, time will tell, and if I'm wrong, you get your 5 bucks

It would be better serve discourse to post the size of the tires on the BOSS LS and the 2012 and 2013 GT500 that you believe to be accurate.

I love improvements. Tell me exactly what improvements were made.

8 seconds and people think it s the car? The GT500 is not 8 seconds faster than a six cylinder and yet a model year difference makes on GT500 8 seconds faster. When you look at track results you have to think through what is possible and not possible. Track conditions, driver and car might account for 8 seconds. A great driver vs a good driver, maybe. 8 seconds for model year improvements would be highly unlikely.

Exponentially faster? The GT500 isn't exponentially faster than the six cylinder base Mustang. I think I just said that.

Your 5 dollars would be best spent here no matter who is right or wrong. https://shop.stjude.org/GiftCatalog/...nl=FaceWthDrop

[ffrcobra_65]

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

Pete, do you not see the advantage of a car that makes MORE fly wheel horsepower but the SAME torque at the wheels? And do you not understand that that appears to be exactly what Ford is doing with the 2013 GT500?

You say the chassis can't handle more power, and that it will just make the traction worse, but what you don't seem to understand is that the revised gearing means that it ISN'T putting any more power to the wheels. The power to the wheels remains roughly the same, and due to the lower gearing you're able to remain in each gear longer. That means less gear changes. That means the ability to stay in lower gears for longer, directly resulting in increased acceleration. Both of those things translate to better overall acceleration with ZERO increase in traction problems (you can't have more traction problems if you're not putting more torque to the wheels).

Add to that, that they're not JUST doing that, torsen = better at getting power to the ground. More agressive suspension = better at getting power to the ground. More downforce = better at getting power to the ground.

Your posts in this thread repeatedly ignore all the other things that Ford is doing to the 2013 besides adding the hundred horsepower.



So you thought the ZL1 was going to weigh 50 pounds more than the SS, and then you stated your guesstimate as solid fact? Seems reasonable.

When the 2013 GT500 runs 1.5+ seconds quicker than the 11/12 model at VIR, are you going to man up and admit that you were wrong?

He has been wrong so far I say, let's just wait. Spin cycle is working OT now.