Camaro team's response to concern about Transmission Output Shaft Failure

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by UCF w00t

He's saying they determined that the failures are within spec so there would be no reason for any special consideration.

I understand, what John means is the probability of it happening under normal driving conditions are low for it occurring if you have a defective one. He even furthers it by saying it stays the same under extreme driving conditions. So Woot, what you are saying is that even if there was a way to test it, they wouldn't bother? I think that if somebody does get hurt because of this, and there was a way to test it out, then they might step in and do more than their current position if the NHTSA gets involved like they did with the Ford suffering total drivetrain failures and such. It would be nice for the dealers to know about John's message as they still can deny the claim in fear that GM won't cover the repairs. A post in a forum is not official to the dealers as much as we would like it to be.

[UCF w00t]

Originally Posted by Supermans

I understand, what John means is the probability of it happening under normal driving conditions are low for it occurring if you have a defective one. He even furthers it by saying it stays the same under extreme driving conditions. So Woot, what you are saying is that even if there was a way to test it, they wouldn't bother? I think that if somebody does get hurt because of this, and there was a way to test it out, then they might step in and do more than their current position if the NHTSA gets involved like they did with the Ford suffering total drivetrain failures and such. It would be nice for the dealers to know about John's message as they still can deny the claim in fear that GM won't cover the repairs. A post in a forum is not official to the dealers as much as we would like it to be.

Not only is he saying that the probability of it happening under normal driving is low but the probability of you having one that snaps under heavy loads is low as well.

I'm pretty certain there isn't a way to test it. It's not something they can just pop off. And once they get it off, the only way to effectively test this sort of thing is destructively (which obviously defeats the purpose). They could inspect it I suppose (not sure if you can readily see it) but that wouldn't reveal anything unless there's visible cracks which is unlikely.

Every car has a risk of failure in various parts that, in theory, could be a safety issue. All manufacturing is based on constraints and tolerances including acceptable failure rates. GM determined that this was within the acceptable region. It seems like it might be on the higher end of that threshold but it apparently hasn't crossed the line. I highly doubt you're going to get anything out of the NHTSA or GM on this. Look at the Toyota gas pedal stuff... it took a police officer driving his family to have a fatal accident for them to really even look into it.

Dealers won't deny a claim unless they either just feel like being dicks and don't like making money or GM forces them to. At worst your car would sit at the dealership for a bit while the dealer waits to hear from GM if they're going to cover it. I doubt GM will be strict with this one considering past events.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by UCF w00t

Not only is he saying that the probability of it happening under normal driving is low but the probability of you having one that snaps under heavy loads is low as well.

I'm pretty certain there isn't a way to test it. It's not something they can just pop off. And once they get it off, the only way to effectively test this sort of thing is destructively (which obviously defeats the purpose). They could inspect it I suppose (not sure if you can readily see it) but that wouldn't reveal anything unless there's visible cracks which is unlikely.

Every car has a risk of failure in various parts that, in theory, could be a safety issue. All manufacturing is based on constraints and tolerances including acceptable failure rates. GM determined that this was within the acceptable region. It seems like it might be on the higher end of that threshold but it apparently hasn't crossed the line. I highly doubt you're going to get anything out of the NHTSA or GM on this. Look at the Toyota gas pedal stuff... it took a police officer driving his family to have a fatal accident for them to really even look into it.

Dealers won't deny a claim unless they either just feel like being dicks and don't like making money or GM forces them to. At worst your car would sit at the dealership for a bit while the dealer waits to hear from GM if they're going to cover it. I doubt GM will be strict with this one considering past events.

Exactly my point above, it would take a death or two and then maybe this would be looked into further. Until then, I just pray nothing happens to anyone who's part fails. I wonder what would constitute being the highest point of the threshold before this becomes a problem/recall? We know it's been more than just the members on this forum, which is still a good number. Well, I'm tired tonight, and at least GM came and spoke to us. I feel better about this issue but still not 100% better. And you guys know why.

So nothing has been changed in the construction of these parts or other parts due to this issue once the QC delay occurred? I think that is a fair question to ask the head of engineering since he would know. In other words has there been a mechanical change of any kind if you would compare a Camaro SS built before the QC delay vs a newer one? For example has there been any enhancements to the drivetrain to lessen wheel-hop as that was brought up as something that may cause the shaft to snap?

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Supermans

Exactly my point above, it would take a death or two and then maybe this would be looked into further. Until then, I just pray nothing happens to anyone who's part fails. I wonder what would constitute being the highest point of the threshold before this becomes a problem/recall? We know it's been more than just the members on this forum, which is still a good number. Well, I'm tired tonight, and at least GM came and spoke to us. I feel better about this issue but still not 100% better. And you guys know why.

So nothing has been changed in the construction of these parts or other parts due to this issue once the QC delay occurred? I think that is a fair question to ask the head of engineering since he would know. In other words has there been a mechanical change of any kind if you would compare a Camaro SS built before the QC delay vs a newer one?

It's not a safety concern... Stop beating that drum please.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Supermans

So nothing has been changed in the construction of these parts or other parts due to this issue once the QC delay occurred? I think that is a fair question to ask the head of engineering since he would know. In other words has there been a mechanical change of any kind if you would compare a Camaro SS built before the QC delay vs a newer one?

Not that we're aware of, but I'm sure someone will chime in if they can.

The outbreaks of output shaft failures early on was an isolated circumstance, and although there is a pattern involved, it seems the warranty claims on the output shaft is stupid-low (hence John's comment about probability of failure -- though there was more research behind a statement like that)....in line with most other powertrain components, and so not a significant worry.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

It's not a safety concern... Stop beating that drum please.

I am not beating any drum, and it is still a concern if it were to happen in the wrong situation. As a Camaro owner, I have the right to still be concerned about that part of this situation. No need to silence me on that. I'm glad we got a response, and in return I thanked John. Quit getting on my case as this isn't about you or me.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Not that we're aware of, but I'm sure someone will chime in if they can.

The outbreaks of output shaft failures early on was an isolated circumstance, and although there is a pattern involved, it seems the warranty claims on the output shaft is stupid-low (hence John's comment about probability of failure -- though there was more research behind a statement like that)....in line with most other powertrain components, and so not a significant worry.

And I appreciate your efforts in getting him to let us know what Gm's take on the issue was and is. Camaro5 did a good thing here by getting involved with all forum members in getting an answer.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Supermans

I am not beating any drum, and it is still a concern if it were to happen in the wrong situation. As a Camaro owner, I have the right to still be concerned about that part of this situation. No need to silence me on that. I'm glad we got a response, and in return I thanked John. Quit getting on my case as this isn't about you or me.

You've made three posts in a row mentioning YOUR safety concerns you've gone so far as to conclude that GM won't take it seriously until there are deaths.

I haven't deleted nor edited a single one of your posts on this topic. So I don't think it's about you or me either. It's about GM and the way they've chosen to handle this. You may hold GM in a poor opinion because they don't see the same safety issue that you do. I'm quite certain that GM has considered every angle on this. If there was a true safety concern they would be handling it differently. GM is the only entity in this situation with all the information... Is it so hard to trust them that they've made the most responsible decision with the information at hand?

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

You've made three posts in a row mentioning YOUR safety concerns you've gone so far as to conclude that GM won't take it seriously until there are deaths.

I haven't deleted nor edited a single one of your posts on this topic. So I don't think it's about you or me either. It's about GM and the way they've chosen to handle this. You may hold GM in a poor opinion because they don't see the same safety issue that you do. I'm quite certain that GM has considered every angle on this. If there was a true safety concern they would be handling it differently. GM is the only entity in this situation with all the information... Is it so hard to trust them that they've made the most responsible decision with the information at hand?

Thanks GTHAVIT, and yes I do trust GM for making the right decision here. I will lay my concern to rest and appreciate that you haven't censored my posts in here. I know you can be as hard headed as me sometimes. Just know that I care about this forum, and every Camaro owner in here. I am satisfied with GM's response and it is a great day today as our voices have been heard. Thanks in large part to Dragoneye and his contacts at Gm along with all the members who raised their questions and concerns to GM. This is the only way that does work compared to the GM hotline. Thanks again camaro5 and all those involved. You all have a goodnight and a Merry Christmas/happy Holidays

[mtcwby]

Originally Posted by Supermans

I pray a shaft doesn't break and cause a death or deaths, that would be a shame.

I very much doubt that anyone could die from an output shaft breaking.
They aren't breaking at 70 mph going down the highway. They have been breaking with launch control, or hard launches doing burnouts. That all happens usually in first gear at 5-10 mph. When the shaft breaks, the car just comes to a stop. Don't know how that could possibly kill someone. So QUIT being so dramatic.
I, for one, have launched my car very hard at the dragstrip at least 70 times, not counting the burnouts before the run. I don't use launch control because that causes my car to wheelhop. And I'm smart enough to know that wheelhop is what breaks driveline components. If I feel wheelhop, I back out of it. Therefore I am not abusing the car.
Since I haven't broken an output shaft yet I have to assume that I'm not going to break one. But, now that I'm supercharged, if I break a shaft it will be my responsibility(pay to play). But even if they would cover it with the warranty, do I really want a new oem part that broke with the power that I am now putting down? NO, it will probably just break again. So if I break a part now, then it will be replaced with a higher performance part that will not break again. So, why worry about warranty if you modify the car?

Oh, I almost forgot. Thanks John aka fbodfather 2.0 !!!
You make me proud to have your signature on my engine cover!!

[JM10]

After reading all the threads about this issue this is my plan:
Im going to run my car hard with occasional trips to the track before installing a supercharger.
If my output shaft breaks (before or after the SC) and dealership doesnt honor the warranty, Im going to open several threads in different forums posting my experience.

JM

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by mtcwby

I very much doubt that anyone could die from an output shaft breaking.
They aren't breaking at 70 mph going down the highway. They have been breaking with launch control, or hard launches doing burnouts. That all happens usually in first gear at 5-10 mph. When the shaft breaks, the car just comes to a stop. Don't know how that could possibly kill someone. So QUIT being so dramatic.
I, for one, have launched my car very hard at the dragstrip at least 70 times, not counting the burnouts before the run. I don't use launch control because that causes my car to wheelhop. And I'm smart enough to know that wheelhop is what breaks driveline components. If I feel wheelhop, I back out of it. Therefore I am not abusing the car.
Since I haven't broken an output shaft yet I have to assume that I'm not going to break one. But, now that I'm supercharged, if I break a shaft it will be my responsibility(pay to play). But even if they would cover it with the warranty, do I really want a new oem part that broke with the power that I am now putting down? NO, it will probably just break again. So if I break a part now, then it will be replaced with a higher performance part that will not break again. So, why worry about warranty if you modify the car?

Pulling out into a busy intersection for example (t-boned) or from the side of the road into traffic on an expressway (hit from behind).

Now GTHAVIT, I am simply responding to his post. Especially after his "QUIT being so dramatic" comment. If you're going to delete this message, then delete his as well as his tone is demeaning.

I have been the most vocal, however I wasn't the only one concerned about this issue when I created the other thread and participated in the ones back four months ago when the issue starting popping up in the forum. I am content with GM's response and since they don't believe it is a safety issue because not enough of them have broken to reach the tolerance level for failure in engineering terms, then all is well. I am glad that we have this extra reassurance that it is unlikely we will experience this problem under regular and extreme usage of the Camaro.

This forum and its members all have a voice here. mtcwby,Don't diminish what we did and what we stand for as all of our voices have helped achieve getting the answers we have gotten from John Fitzpatrick.

[RichieRich]

Thanks Brotha from another Motha~

[TAG UR IT]

First,

John...I thank you very much for bringing this to light as we've all been wondering what GM's stance was on the issue. I DO appreciate the clarification, the reassurance that any problems would get fixed, and informing us of the FACT that the issue "of a customer experiencing an output shaft failure under normal driving conditions are very low (or - if you are into engineer speak, "below tolerance").

I honestly DO feel safe driving my 2010 Camaro SS and am NOT concerned about pulling out into traffic having a lingering fear of a part breaking thus causing me to get T-boned....because, technically (and I'm just saying), ANY part could fail on the car (not that it's going to)causing the car to stop dead in its tracks....heck...it's a MANUAL...and I could technically STALL the car when pulling out causing me to get T-boned (or even maybe struck from behind)...but, I know that the chances of that happening are minimal...and maybe even "under normal driving conditions are very low (or - if you are into engineer speak, "below tolerance"). No need to worry...I won't ask to have my manual transmission replaced by a brand new automatic...



And all at once, we take a deep breath......( take that deep breath now...)......let it out....and say, "wooooo sahhhhhhhhhhh."


Very good.


Now...let's all go back to our regularly scheduled programming.



....yes....hit the "new posts" button, please. NOW!!!