What's the bigger sin: the Stang log rear axle, or the Maro porkiness?

[Number 3]

Well you would have to call them a "sin" if they were clean sheet new architecture executions.

But when you get into the business of developing cars you start to understand that both cars are where they are based on a multitude of equations being balanced.

The Mustang has a solid rear axle simply because that is what the architecture was developed around. And it is clear that you can tune it to provide some pretty good results. Some of the magazines have even picked the Mustang as the better handling car. A solide rear axle is cheaper, weighs less and can be pretty robust. So unless you find your customers avoiding you for this trait, you are better off spending your money elsewhere, like on the interior, another area where some argue the Mustang is supperior.

Now the Camaro is based heavily on the Zeta 1 architecture from Holden. You can't very easily take an architecture the size of a Holden Commodore and shrink it to the degree you find "perfect". It in fact would no longer be a shared architecture and the shared parts and solutions would be lost.

So I'll propose that if you size up the Mustang to be the same size as a Camaro and put an IRS under the rear end you would find a car that strangely weighs about what a Camaro does.

I don't mind the size of the Camaro, I kind of prefer it. A bigger car will weigh more without expensive premium materials.

So to your original question, I can't consider either of these sins as I know they are the way they are from where they came from. And in both cases they have made the best of those roots. And in my opinion, the Camaro is the better package.

[THE EVIL TW1N]

it's funny how so many owners want that "sophistication" that the IRS brings, but then when it comes to something like the rough idle from the pushrod engine, they just brush it off as nothing.

just an observation, i don't want to turn this into Mustang vs camaro, so i'll just leave that.


personally, i think the weight is a bigger issue than the solid axle since it effects handling, braking and acceleration. the camaro was just put on a platform that it probably shouldn't have been.

btw, a properly designed IRS should not weigh much more, if anything, than a solid axle. the cobras (such as mine) lose about 120 lbs. from the switch over because the subframe that had to be designed afterwards in order for it to work properly.

[Tal]

Originally Posted by sen10l

I was watching Top Gear on youtube (the muscle car drive through the US 3 part series) and noticed how uncomfortable Hammond was driving the Challenger through the twisties, whilst May (driving the CTS-V) and Clarkson (ZR1) loved the handling through the twisties. I also noticed that the Challenger gets the best slalom time out of the 3 muscle cars (Challenger, Mustang, Camaro), which made me wonder whether the Camaro will feel nimble through the twisties, or feel like a hog.

Well first slalom isn't the be all end all of handling, but it this didn't sound right so I looked up some slalom comparisons for fun. The ZR1 and CTS-V do outclass the any of the muscle car trio but they are a pair of performance powerhouses, almost anything will suffer in such a comparison.

Inside Line
64.7 2009 Challenger R/T
65.0 2009 Mercedes E63
66.0 2009 Challenger SRT-8
68.4 2010 Mustang GT (track pack)
68.5 2009 BMW M5
68.6 2010 Camaro SS
71.1 2009 Cadillac CTS-V
71.6 2009 Porsche 911 GT2
74.0 2009 Nissan GT-R
74.7 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1

Road & Track
65.0 2009 Challenger SRT-8
66.2 2009 Bentley Continental GT Speed
66.5 2010 Camaro RS
66.8 2010 Camaro SS
67.4 2009 Mercedes-Benz SL65 AMG
69.4 2010 Mustang GT
70.1 2009 Cadillac CTS-V
70.2 2009 Dodge Viper SRT10
71.2 2009 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano
72.2 2009 Lamborghini Murciélago LP640
73.4 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1

[Tal]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

it's funny how so many owners want that "sophistication" that the IRS brings, but then when it comes to something like the rough idle from the pushrod engine, they just brush it off as nothing.

Ride quality and what an engine sounds like at idle, that's like comparing apples and green beans and widely differing opinions are only natural. It's not like either rides or sounds like a Dodge one ton with a Cummins diesel, although I'm sure there are some people here that would love even that if it was fast enough.

[SleepWarz]

Blame the safety features.

I do.

[detroitboy]

The Camaro rides much better than my GT500....but I did'nt like the feeling that I was sitting in a bucket with the Camaro. The Camaro was smooth...the GT500 is more of an agressive beast. Both have good brakes. I do like the fact that the GT500 takes up a bit less space in the garage than a Camaro does.
I've got a vert...so it probably weighs more than the Camaro anyhow. Its hard to believe that a car that size weighs that much, but when you look under it you do find a lot of beefy items. And its much stiffer than the convertibles we grew up with. Hopefully the Camaro convertible will feel as good when it finally comes out. But for guys used to Camaros its really gonna feel porky I'm sure.

[HIGHOCTANE]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

personally, i think the weight is a bigger issue than the solid axle since it effects handling, braking and acceleration. the camaro was just put on a platform that it probably shouldn't have been.

Have you driven a 2010 Camaro? My 2SS handles and brakes WAY better than the Terminators. 100 mph in the 2010 Camaro feels about like 60 mph in a Terminator. And the brake...again the better on the Camaro...... the Terminator and the 2010 Camaro weigh about the same..
I love the Terminator..but a spade is a spade...I do miss the low end TQ..but that is really all I miss..
JMO..

[MIKnam67]

Originally Posted by sen10l

As a person with an engineering educational background, I appreciate good technology, so I don't appreciate the log rear axle of the Mustang despite the propaganda spouted (read: excuses) for it. I can't in good conscience drive a car that has a "feature" that no other sports car has.

On the other hand, the Camaro is a porky car. Every picture I see of the 3 main muscle cars shows the Camaro as the widest of the three. This thing is massive! And the weight of course is no better. In fact, I think the Mustang size and weight is "perfect".

The perfect car will be a Camaro with trimmed down dimensions to be around the same size as the Mustang, slightly higher roof and slightly lower body height to improve visibility (which I don't think will reduce its good looks), and improved handling. Ideally the Camaro will weigh no more than the Mustang. That is the absolutely perfect car. I will be completely and 100% satisfied in every regard.

Okay, so given that at the very least, I will not see this perfection until 2014 when the Camaro will apparently move to the Alpha platform, what is your opinion on the two sins described above? We have to compromise, and therefore choose what we can live with.

Obviously you prefer the Camaro porkiness given you own or aspire to own a Camaro, but if we were to discuss these two negatives independently, what is your opinion?

A distant alternative to the Camaro for me would be the 2011 Shelby GT500. However, the log rear axle is a big deterrent for me as well as the fact that Mustangs are as common as jeans. Maybe a discussion into the two sins will persuade me for the log axle, or for the porkiness.

With your engineering background how do you feel about the ZR1 Corvette? Is it porky to you?

THe Camaro is 75.5" wide.
The 2010 ZR1 Corvette is 75.9" wide without mirrors. Porkiness?????????

[69Z/28Camaro]

the camaro has the power to back up the weight. the mustang is light because of a smaller engine and tranny. and about the chally having a faster slalom? i have read A LOT of comparos and none have shown the challenger as having a better slalom than the camaro

[2010 SSRS]

The Camaro is perfect, I think these 2010 Camaro's are the best looking Camaro's ever made.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Find a single car on the road with the Camaro's specs and lighter weight. There isn't one. Even the 'almighty' germans don't deliver.

Enough with the weight comments, as far as I'm concerned...because they're baseless when put in context. Would you like them to revert back to Live axle to save some pounds?




EDIT: Oh, and newsflash...we're talking about an inch or so in every direction to "match" the Mustang in dimensions.

EDIT2: The CTS-V May drove weighs 4300lbs.......

[cbr1100xx]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Find a single car on the road with the Camaro's specs and lighter weight. There isn't one. Even the 'almighty' germans don't deliver.

That's a very good point. A 451hp/6.3L V8 lil' ol' Mercedes C63 as in "C Class" weighs 3924lbs.......that's more than the Camaro.

[Jarhead]

Originally Posted by Tal

Well first slalom isn't the be all end all of handling, but it this didn't sound right so I looked up some slalom comparisons for fun. The ZR1 and CTS-V do outclass the any of the muscle car trio but they are a pair of performance powerhouses, almost anything will suffer in such a comparison.

Inside Line
64.7 2009 Challenger R/T
65.0 2009 Mercedes E63
66.0 2009 Challenger SRT-8
68.4 2010 Mustang GT (track pack)
68.5 2009 BMW M5
68.6 2010 Camaro SS
71.1 2009 Cadillac CTS-V
71.6 2009 Porsche 911 GT2
74.0 2009 Nissan GT-R
74.7 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1

Road & Track
65.0 2009 Challenger SRT-8
66.2 2009 Bentley Continental GT Speed
66.5 2010 Camaro RS
66.8 2010 Camaro SS
67.4 2009 Mercedes-Benz SL65 AMG
69.4 2010 Mustang GT
70.1 2009 Cadillac CTS-V
70.2 2009 Dodge Viper SRT10
71.2 2009 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano
72.2 2009 Lamborghini Murciélago LP640
73.4 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1

One has to ask a few questions here.
Did the same driver make all the runs???
Were they done on the dame day/temp/etc????
How many miles on the vehicle/tires??/

If a driver wanted to make one car look better they only needed to exaggerate their steering inputs slightly to reduce the times, as well as push another car harder/tighter to make a better time. that is why I feel that these tests are just that a test, and are subjective to those that complete the tests.

Bottom line______________ You drive what you like, for that reason, you like it.

Me, I love my Camaro.It handles beautifully, looks awesome, Is a true beast to drive, and simply put is more fun to drive..... IMHO anyway.

:h appyanim:

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by 2010 SSRS

The Camaro is perfect, I think these 2010 Camaro's are the best looking Camaro's ever made.

What does this have to do with weight or a solid axle?