Just seen NEW GM commercial!!!

[Tal]

Originally Posted by ROBBDOGG1986

Idk know for sure but I'm still proud, not sure y they would advertise there success if it was false

It's half-true, as they did pay off the loan, that it was payed off with money the poured into their stock wouldn't matter normally except that it was simply a different set of bailout funds. It was a good step that hows GM has stopped hemorrhaging money and is on the right path. The mistake or diagreement is that GM management, and certain politicians don't see the massive investment in GM stock as something that is owed to the taxpayers the way much of the general public does.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Maybe if Americans cared to buy AMERICAN, or the gov't would care to impose import tariffs like every other country on the planet we wouldn't have to worry about 'bailing out' companies...

Do YOU realize that it was conceptualized, designed, and partially engineered here? Do you realize it is on a GLOBAL platform, but the profit, and recognition go to the American arm? Not to mention the US taxes paid every step of the way.

My response was to the assertion that this is an all-American product, when like you say yourself it is the result of a GLOBAL effort.

You will get no argument from me that "free trade" as is currently practiced in America is in reality anything but. It is however a tiny piece of the puzzle when analyzing how management took what was once the greatest manufacturing company the world has ever seen and systematically ran it into the ground over the course of several decades. As for the BUY AMERICAN mantra, it's kind of self explanatory to say that if everyone had simply kept buying GM cars all along then they probably wouldn't have gone belly-up. ANY failed businessman can simply shrug his shoulders and say, well if I'd just had more customers I would have been successful. NO KIDDING. GM wound up where it was primarily because their product ceased to be competitive in the marketplace. The world changed and kept changing, and GM steadfastly refused to change with it. They were dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century and while many seem willing to pat them on the back for FINALLY getting with the program, I for one am screaming WHAT TOOK YOU SO DAMN LONG.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

I'm lost. What is different at GM pertaining to the type of cars they build now compared to the cars they built pre-Gov involvement?

Every change made pertaining to fuel economy and CAFE standards have to be made by every other manufacturer selling here. (and Europe)

Made before the BK or not... cars like the ZR1, CTS-V (Sedan, Wagon, and Coupe), Camaro, etc would be DEAD, not to mention the SUVs and Trucks if this Mythical Super-Green Governement Monster was really running the show. I mean Hummer and Pontiac were on the chopping block before even the financial meltdown. Hummer was put up literally after the January 2008 Gas hike to $4-5 a gallon. Pontiac boasted mostly rebadged Chevy's with a, ironically being above Chevy, trashier, more trailer park-ish image:(

So I ask again. Where has GM's programs changed in a manner not congruent with the rest of the industry?

I often think people love conspiracy theories. It works both ways tho... and because of them my next car will DEFINETLY be either the Lacrosse, Regal, Malibu, or Volt.

[kelley@vectormotorsports]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Maybe if Americans cared to buy AMERICAN, or the gov't would care to impose import tariffs like every other country on the planet we wouldn't have to worry about 'bailing out' companies...

Do YOU realize that it was conceptualized, designed, and partially engineered here? Do you realize it is on a GLOBAL platform, but the profit, and recognition go to the American arm? Not to mention the US taxes paid every step of the way.

EDIT: RobbDogg -- there is no reason not to be proud of General Motors right now. They are turning out fantastic product, focusing on customer needs, and working towards avoiding the mistakes that caused them trouble in the first place...among many other positive attributes. Is everything rainbows and lollipops? No, sadly...but don't ever become a pessimist.

Thanks. I was born in Detroit and most everybody I know is directly or indirectly affected by one of the big three (around here we still call them that).

Yes, they have made bad decisions. But the bottom line is the jobs and most of the money stay here. I rarely see an imported car around here. I see at least 4 G8's & 2 Camaro's every day on my 20 mile drive to work. Macomb County (where our shop is) has the most domestic cars owned per household than anywhere in the country.

I don't even know what my exact point is, but I have seen enough of my friends and families lives negatively affected by layoffs and plant closings to know that saving the US automakers is not a bad thing.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Maybe if Americans cared to buy AMERICAN, or the gov't would care to impose import tariffs like every other country on the planet we wouldn't have to worry about 'bailing out' companies...

Do YOU realize that it was conceptualized, designed, and partially engineered here? Do you realize it is on a GLOBAL platform, but the profit, and recognition go to the American arm? Not to mention the US taxes paid every step of the way.

EDIT: RobbDogg -- there is no reason not to be proud of General Motors right now. They are turning out fantastic product, focusing on customer needs, and working towards avoiding the mistakes that caused them trouble in the first place...among many other positive attributes. Is everything rainbows and lollipops? No, sadly...but don't ever become a pessimist.

[Supermans]

If you think I am some sort of GM hater, think again. I am no such person. However I cannot stop you all for demonizing me in that fashion if I do spell out the facts. I cannot explain what is going on without getting political since everything has to do with politics of what GM's new management is doing.

There are people that sit back and let Government tell us what they know we want to hear without question, and there are those that question the Government's motives and tactics. It is as simple and as complex as that. Everything is intertwined now and unfortunately this site has policies which by keeping out any political talk indirectly does exactly what our current Government would like it to be. Which is the less informed you are and the less you are interested along with having complete trust in what they say and do that it is for the better is what they want.

I do have hope that the current GM prospers and that one day it is not owned by the Government anymore. If that is too political a statement then I will do as I did before and not frequent this forum that much.

And for everyone's information, I am enjoying my Camaro and have gotten together with other camaro5 members as well this past year. Life has been rough for me and my family but we are still kicking. God Bless...

[wavrun2000]

Originally Posted by Kirk@VectorMotorsports

Thanks. I was born in Detroit and most everybody I know is directly or indirectly affected by one of the big three (around here we still call them that).

Yes, they have made bad decisions. But the bottom line is the jobs and most of the money stay here. I rarely see an imported car around here. I see at least 4 G8's & 2 Camaro's every day on my 20 mile drive to work. Macomb County (where our shop is) has the most domestic cars owned per household than anywhere in the country.

I don't even know what my exact point is, but I have seen enough of my friends and families lives negatively affected by layoffs and plant closings to know that saving the US automakers is not a bad thing.

Yeah that is one of the biggest things I notice when I go up to MI to visit famaily. You step off the airplane in MI and it is demistic cars as far as the eye can see. Then I come back to FL step off the airplane and have to search out the American cars. Like you not sure what my point is here eaither. Guess I can just relate like you can. Makes me feel good to see the American cars up there.
:flag2:

[Craig]

Originally Posted by wavrun2000

Easy there. First if you notice no where does it say that I own a Camaro and last time I checked the Corvette was not made or engineered in Australia. Second I am not saying bail out every failing company. Just ones that employ thousands of American and have a direct affect on many other companies (suppliers).

Well first you know full well that we were both talking about the new Camaro. Let's not bicker about semantics. Again it is a GLOBAL car, not an All-American one as you described it.

Your other point can be basically boiled down to the "too big to fail" argument, where we get a system in which the government picks winners and losers. The issue then becomes one of moral hazard. None of us are better off in a system where a few giant corporations can essentially hold the entire economy hostage, which has been the case with GM and to a much greater extent Wall Street. It is not acceptable (at least to me) to simply pay the ransom and then move on as if nothing had happened. Time will tell if GM has truly learned their lesson from all this but if they have, then they will be the exception not the rule.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Craig

GM wound up where it was primarily because their product ceased to be competitive in the marketplace.

Indeed it did. But you're only scratching the surface with this statement.........

[Tal]

Originally Posted by Kirk@VectorMotorsports

I don't even know what my exact point is, but I have seen enough of my friends and families lives negatively affected by layoffs and plant closings to know that saving the US automakers is not a bad thing.

Saving a megacorp and all of it's employees from collapse is generally good, that's easy. Well if the corp wasn't addressing the reasons for it's failure it might not be good, but regarding this specific bailout GM and the UAW have made serious progress in the last few years, I'm not sure they've turned the corner but they are close to doing so. Adding billions and billions to the national debt is a bad thing though, also easy. The government getting involved in who should have their job saved and who shouldn't is disturbing. I'm not looking to get into debate over the bailouts, simply pointing out that it isn't a straight forward good/bad debate.

[Captain Awesome]

There's a good number of people who supported bailing out GM. I am happy they were bailed out for sure. I have reservations about some details of the execution of the bailout, but GM didn't design the bailout. They just needed it.

I think if it were put to a popular vote, a majority would have approved bailing GM out.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by Tal

Saving a megacorp and all of it's employees from collapse is generally good, that's easy. Well if the corp wasn't addressing the reasons for it's failure it might not be good, but regarding this specific bailout GM and the UAW have made serious progress in the last few years, I'm not sure they've turned the corner but they are close to doing so. Adding billions and billions to the national debt is a bad thing though, also easy. The government getting involved in who should have their job saved and who shouldn't is disturbing. I'm not looking to get into debate over the bailouts, simply pointing out that it isn't a straight forward good/bad debate.

According to this amazing new GM commercial, all dept with interest has been paid back in full five years in advance...... Simply amazing isn't it?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100421...anygmpublicaid
The payments however do not include much higher loans made to the company under its former guise, being slowly wound down through the bankruptcy process. Oh wait, that wasn't in the commercial so it can't be true.. Why would the commercial leave that part out? Hmm..

Facts:
GM only paid $6.7 Billion of over $40 Billion of our money.

$6.7 Billion is what they owed in cash....the rest will come from GM stock proceeds. However, to get our money back GM's stock would have to go to $40 per share for US to break even. And selling the stock you have to pay more taxe's if there are earnings..hmm..

http://www.squidoo.com/buy-gm-stock

GM was once the blue chip of blue chips stocks, but don't try to buy GM stock purely on sentimental reasons. We're all familiar with the news concerning the bankruptcy proceedings for GM, and the deal that gave a majority of control to the US and Canadian governments. Many of the stipulations of this deal involve large amounts of debt that must be payed off before any amount will be reimbursed to shareholders.

Stock value today for GM is .75 cents.. Will it hit $40 a share anytime soon? My guess is you'd have a better shot at getting hit by lightning.

Lowering labor and operating costs overall and making profits will be the only way GM can ever even begin to break even which in turn all the profits from that point on will pay back those former stock holders who got the worst end of the deal. They are not holding their breath thinking they will ever see that money lost again. And most of those stockholders were the fat cats anyways, nobody cares about them since they still have enough money in the bank.

Well, there is a long way to go before any of these above situations occur. The only thing happening right now is a propaganda machine trying to make most people believe everything is going great with GM and all the bailout money with interest has been paid back in full. Do you still want to believe this great news after reading factual numbers and information that they did not include in the commercial? That is up to you...

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Indeed it did. But you're only scratching the surface with this statement.........

Yeah, the main culprit was years and years of legacy costs going up and up until it was almost impossible for the company to make a profit. Ultimately there is more than that however I feel that was the biggest reason.

[1bad65]

Originally Posted by Craig

GM wound up where it was primarily because their product ceased to be competitive in the marketplace.

Actually the UAW was the main reason they (and Chrysler) wound up facing bankruptcy. Paying a high school grad ~$73/hr to build cars is a business strategy doomed to fail.