Canadian Built Camaro, Foreign Cars and US Jobs

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by bigearl

Hehe, I have a 2010 Camaro too . But you have to admit, even by today's higher standards- it's typically wiser to buy year 2.

I agree with what you said about other countries demanding more too. It's happening. Riots in China at Honda plants, India now has a cost of living index and a minimum wage of sorts.

I lol every time I see minimum wage laws.

[Lauryn200]

Originally Posted by bigearl

The problem with this whole paragraph is clearly illustrated in the Camaro. The Camaro is a completely emotional purchase decision. If everyone was extremely educated on all of the options and purchased only on value and durability, then everyone would be in a 3800 engined Buick or a Subaru Outback Wagon. Subaru Outback's are basically are what I consider to be the most definitive jack-of-all-trades, master of none ever produced and you have to work extremely hard to kill a 3800 Buick.

Everyone on here who already has a Camaro would have gone against research because research you never buy a 1st year car. That is a cardinal rule of car buying.

I think consumers are plenty educated, I just don't think they all think like me (or like you). You think people who don't think like you when it comes to a car purchase have not educated themselves on the competition, whereas I think most people who buy new cars are reasonably educated but value different amenities or rank their information sources differently than you do.

Both my vehicles are the last model before they changed them.

No issues from either one of them.

I wanted a fast sports car...loved the Camaro,fell in love when I saw it at the NYC car show. But after trials and tribulations with dealers and the fact it would not fit in the garage was the deal killer for me.

[alfie43]

Originally Posted by bpmurr

So using the OP's logic we should all buy Ford's since they have the highest amount of American works per car sold.

No, that wasn't my "logic", that was your interpretation of what I said. You buy what ever you want to buy. Ultimately, it is the writer's (my) responsibility to accurately communicate his point to the reader, but as we all know, the Internet is a free-for-all where some people see only what they want to see, hear only what they want to hear, and conclude only what they want to conclude.

At the risk of becoming redundant, what was my point in my OP? Simply put; A Canadian built Camaro, a Mexican built Ford, or a Michigan built Cadillac, will generate more American jobs than a Korean built Hyundai, an Ohio built Honda, or a Kia assembled in Alabama. The job numbers aren't even close, i.e., GM, Ford, and Chrysler employ more Americans per car produced, than the foreign manufacturers employ per car produced.

There is nothing else said or implied in that. Now, some here have taken it and ran in every possible direction with it. It seems we all love to soapbox to the point of pontification.

There was the post that interpreted my OP had a thinly "veiled" hidden agenda of protectionism...or patriotism, or whatever, Really? I thought I clearly excluded those motives from the start? Or the post that claimed that I was a dinosaur and I was "ignorant" to the fact that the auto business is now global and he proceeded to school me. How would he know of my knowledge of the global economy and auto industry? In his defense; unlike others, I don't include my education level and occupation in my signature and I don't wear my MBTI Personality Type like a badge. Nor do I feel compelled to warn others that I just might "Jack your thread".

To the poster that dismissed manufacturing as being "last century" and claimed that service industry jobs were more "noble" and sophisticated. I guess you might say that if your view of today's auto manufacturing process is last century. Are you aware of how the modern automobile and it's supply chain is R&D'ed, designed, engineered and assembled? We are taking about an automated robotic manufacturing process that supports highly skilled technical jobs....they aren't Henry Ford's assembly lines. Do you know the ratio of manual labor hours to technical and engineering labor hours in the production of today's automobile? I think not. By the way, I think "noble" is better suited for describing an educator teaching our children, a nurse, doctor, health care professional, a policeman/fireman, a journeyman tradesman training an apprentice, or a soldier....not someone sitting in an office cubical computing someone's taxes.

Someone has to tell me what is the relevance of post #50 to this discussion? When I questioned its appropriateness, I was reminded that this was a political discussion from the start. No, it was not, and that post is not relevant political commentary. That was partisan bull sh*t. It doesn't belong in this thread and you know it. As one of you said, "Call a spade, a spade".

In my post in another thread, I chided the OP because he bought a Hyundai Genesis because he was experiencing some employment difficulty. I saw irony in that, but I was wrong to demean him. I regret those remarks, and that certainly influenced your take on my OP in this thread. I sent him a PM and said I was wrong to publicly ridicule him. I offered an explanation, my sincere apology, my regrets, and he has graciously accepted.

Alfie

[Markal]

alfie43,
You are a wise man. Your first few paragraphs sum up the internet community very well. Reading words and comprehending what the writter is saying....really saying is extremely difficult because the mood, eye contact, visual clues and body language we have all grown to know and understand is not there in the written word. Without these clues many mistrust and misinterpret the overall meaning and jump to misguided conclussions the poster never intended. This is the main reason for misunderstanding and not "seeing" what the writter meant in the first place. Several times I've been called "Clueless" (and worse)....really?....why say this? Say, here is what I think or I hear you but, I disagree and leave it at that. By purchasing more American made products....its not Xenophobia....it keeps Americans working and keeps this country great.....PEACE!

[Mr. Wyndham]

You've got it, Alfie!!

I can't add much more to what you've said throughout this thread.

There's a bumper-sticker that says: "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign!"

When there's a choice, the domestic-'ness' of a company ought to be a major factor in the purchase decision, imo. Especially something as expensive as an automobile. But hey...I like to support my country's economy, call me crazy, or 'extremist' -- it's my opinion that too few have a sense of national identity anymore, and this is only a very small part of that. Everyone is so spoiled today and nobody seems to care about the consequences of their actions and I think it's awful. :(

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by alfie43

No, that wasn't my "logic", that was your interpretation of my words. You buy what ever you want to buy. Ultimately, it is the writer's (my) responsibility to accurately communicate his point to the reader, but as we all know, the Internet is a free-for-all where some people see only what they want to see, hear only what they want to hear, and conclude only what they want to conclude.

At the risk of becoming redundant, what was my point in my OP? Simply put; A Canadian built Camaro, a Mexican built Ford, or a Michigan built Cadillac, will generate more American jobs than a Korean built Hyundai, an Ohio built Honda, or a Kia assembled in Alabama. The job numbers aren't even close, i.e., GM, Ford, and Chrysler employ more Americans per car produced, than the foreign manufacturers employ per car produced.

There is nothing else said or implied in that. Now, some here have taken it and ran in every possible direction with it. It seems we all love to soapbox to the point of pontification.

There was the post that interpreted my OP had a thinly "veiled" hidden agenda of protectionism...or patriotism, or whatever, Really? I thought I clearly excluded those motives from the start? Or the post that claimed that I was a dinosaur and I was "ignorant" to the fact that the auto business is now global and he proceeded to school me. How would he know of my knowledge of the global economy and auto industry? In his defense; unlike others, I don't include my education level and occupation in my signature and I don't wear my MBTI Personality Type like a badge. Nor do I feel compelled to warn others that I just might "Jack your thread".

To the poster that dismissed manufacturing as being "last century" and claimed that the service industry was more "noble" and sophisticated. I guess you might say that if your concept of today's auto manufacturing process is last century. Are you aware of how the modern automobile and it's supply chain is R&D'ed, designed, engineered and assembled? We are taking about a highly automated robotic assembly process...not Henry Ford's assembly lines. Do you know the ratio of manual labor hours to technical and engineering labor hours in the production of today's automobile? I think not. By the way, I think "noble" is better suited for describing an educator teaching our children, a nurse, doctor, health care professional, a policeman/fireman, a journeyman tradesman training an apprentice, or a soldier....not someone sitting in an office cubical computing someone's taxes.

Someone has to tell me what is the relevance of post #50 to this discussion? When I questioned its appropriateness, I was reminded that this was a political discussion from the start. No, it was not, and that post is not relevant political commentary. That was partisan bull sh*t. It doesn't belong in this thread and you know it. As one of you said, "Call a spade, a spade".

In my post in another thread, I chided the OP because he bought a Hyundai Genesis because he was experiencing some employment difficulty. I saw irony in that, but I was wrong to demean him. I regret those remarks, and that certainly influenced your take on my OP in this thread. I sent him a PM and said I was wrong to publicly ridicule him. I offered an explanation, my sincere apology, my regrets, and he has graciously accepted.

Alfie

I believe everyone here realizes that buying a domestically manufactured vehicle does help our economy more than another, however the whole point of competition is too weed out the weak. If our automakers fail to meet consumer demand adequately, then the United States automotive industry will fail. This is a big "if", considering there will probably always be an entrepreneur to replace his predecessor in this particular industry. However, even if our industry completely fails, it doesn't imply that we have forever lost the percentage of GDP that our automotive industry adds. It simply means that people will relocate resources to serve other industries that will offset the loss. The only problem is that this isn't an immediate switch, and this will take time to find the appropriate industry where our particular workers stand strong.

[alfie43]

Originally Posted by a_Username

I believe everyone here realizes that buying a domestically manufactured vehicle does help our economy more than another, however the whole point of competition is too weed out the weak. If our automakers fail to meet consumer demand adequately, then the United States automotive industry will fail. This is a big "if", considering there will probably always be an entrepreneur to replace his predecessor in this particular industry. However, even if our industry completely fails, it doesn't imply that we have forever lost the percentage of GDP that our automotive industry adds. It simply means that people will relocate resources to serve other industries that will offset the loss. The only problem is that this isn't an immediate switch, and this will take time to find the appropriate industry where our particular workers stand strong.

I completely agree with that. It is common knowledge that the "quality gap" with the foreign brands that once existed has been closed, equaled and in many cases even surpassed. We can make competitive high quality cars.

It is the cost factor that worries me. Can we compete on a cost basis and avoid paying our people 3rd world wages? At times, I am skeptical. At one time, the American middle class was the envy of the rest of the world and we were elevating their standard of living. Now I fear that there are competitive market pressures that are pulling our wages down to their level.

Alfie

[Markal]

Originally Posted by a_Username

I believe everyone here realizes that buying a domestically manufactured vehicle does help our economy more than another, however the whole point of competition is too weed out the weak. If our automakers fail to meet consumer demand adequately, then the United States automotive industry will fail. This is a big "if", considering there will probably always be an entrepreneur to replace his predecessor in this particular industry. However, even if our industry completely fails, it doesn't imply that we have forever lost the percentage of GDP that our automotive industry adds. It simply means that people will relocate resources to serve other industries that will offset the loss. The only problem is that this isn't an immediate switch, and this will take time to find the appropriate industry where our particular workers stand strong.

You are correct except you forgot to mention...trade barriers. Asians pay a high tarrif or tax on American vehicles (as well as other things American)....same with Europe...very hard to buy American made quality in these countries when the cost is high sales are low. Here in the U.S. we say c'mon in, its a free market (except it isn't) because foreign companies have an advantage, taxes, wages, unions....etc....its not fair. Our government has allowed foreign countries to make huge profits while paying minimal taxes at the cost of American companies paying for everything else. Why would numerous American companies outsource to foreign companies? Because its wise to take advantage of unfairness.....Thats U.S. policy for the present. Over half the stuff Americans buy is made in China!!! Think about it. Call me a protectionist or whatever you want....do you think Europe or Asia will protect us?....no...they just want our money. We need to protect ourselfs and do it NOW! Protect our right to work and be...make these foreign companies pay to do business in the U.S.....they do the same in their countries!!! U.S workers stand strong in every industry....where you goin with that??? We are still a great country...at least for now.

[Sax1031]

I promise you protectionist policies would hurt us more than the other countries.

Their is room for improvement for sure, but it a very thin line.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by alfie43

I completely agree with that. It is common knowledge that the "quality gap" with the foreign brands that once existed has been closed, equaled and in many cases even surpassed. We can make competitive high quality cars.

It is the cost factor that worries me. Can we complete on a cost basis and avoid paying our people 3rd world wages? At times, I am skeptical. At one time, the American middle class was the envy of the rest of the world and we were elevating their standard of living. Now I fear that there are competitive market pressures that are pulling our wages down to their level.

Alfie

I could answer you, but it would be a long political discussion that isn't allowed here.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by Markal

You are correct except you forgot to mention...trade barriers. Asians pay a high tarrif or tax on American vehicles (as well as other things American)....same with Europe...very hard to buy American made quality in these countries when the cost is high sales are low. Here in the U.S. we say c'mon in, its a free market (except it isn't) because foreign companies have an advantage, taxes, wages, unions....etc....its not fair. Our government has allowed foreign countries to make huge profits while paying minimal taxes at the cost of American companies paying for everything else. Why would numerous American companies outsource to foreign companies? Because its wise to take advantage of unfairness.....Thats U.S. policy for the present. Over half the stuff Americans buy is made in China!!! Think about it. Call me a protectionist or whatever you want....do you think Europe or Asia will protect us?....no...they just want our money. We need to protect ourselfs and do it NOW! Protect our right to work and be...make these foreign companies pay to do business in the U.S.....they do the same in their countries!!! U.S workers stand strong in every industry....where you goin with that??? We are still a great country...at least for now.

First of all, whoever says we have a free market is frankly stupid. However, there are unintended consequences of trade sanctions, especially proposing those in the midst of a global depression. The fact is that the Chinese government, through their unrestricted devaluation of yuan, is only digging a nonrefillable hole for themselves. Devaluation of the yuan is only hurting the Chinese consumer and Chinese entrepreneur; the consumer by robbing him of his savings and the entrepreneur by making him sell the same amount of product for half the price before this government engineered inflation. They are continually selling their exports at a loss. The United States should not follow suit in this fallacious attempt at economics.

[Markal]

Originally Posted by Sax1031

I promise you protectionist policies would hurt us more than the other countries.

Their is room for improvement for sure, but it a very thin line.

Protectionist policies would hurt us more than other countries....REALLY?
How? France has VERY protectionist policies and they are doing O.K. (for a socialist society). A very thin line indeed, China may think they own us but, what if we fall. What if the U.S. had another depression even worse than the first?....then China (and others) would fall....and have a depression. They need us....they need our money. Without our purchashing power....who else would buy? For the U.S. to purchase goods Americans must have jobs. What jobs....service....government??? Can these jobs really save the U.S? No, only blue colar jobs can save the U.S.. Lawyers, Politicians and health care workers be damned!!! It seriously boils down to who really makes the products....not just the supporters. A Lawyer usually doesn't hire another lawyer....a doctor doesn't usually ask for health advise and Politicians think they know everything so.....yes, we need all these workers but, we need manufacturing jobs more than anything else. It drives an economy...it drives a society...it drives importance in the world. Without it we are lost. Unions be damned....they want too much!!!

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by Markal

Protectionist policies would hurt us more than other countries....REALLY?
How? France has VERY protectionist policies and they are doing O.K. (for a socialist society). A very thin line indeed, China may think they own us but, what if we fall. What if the U.S. had another depression even worse than the first?....then China (and others) would fall....and have a depression. They need us....they need our money. Without our purchashing power....who else would buy? For the U.S. to purchase goods Americans must have jobs. What jobs....service....government??? Can these jobs really save the U.S? No, only blue colar jobs can save the U.S.. Lawyers, Politicians and health care workers be damned!!! It seriously boils down to who really makes the products....not just the supporters. A Lawyer usually doesn't hire another lawyer....a doctor doesn't usually ask for health advise and Politicians think they know everything so.....yes, we need all these workers but, we need manufacturing jobs more than anything else. It drives an economy...it drives a society...it drives importance in the world. Without it we are lost. Unions be damned....they want too much!!!

Protectionism is only another form of inflation. You'll raise prices of all goods, plus you'll see unemployment rise due to the people who relied on jobs provided by foreign companies be reduced. With our current welfare state being added into the mix, you'll have to help these newly unemployed people through unemployment checks and other incentives. To offset this increase in spending on welfare, the government will have to increase its revenue by increased taxation; usually, taxation is aimed at businesses. Further stressing business with unneeded expenditures will force them to readjust their budgets, which would consist of cost-cutting and raising prices of their goods. You see where I'm going with this?

[Sax1031]

We are still the manufacturing leader of the world. We start implementing protectionist policies and we end up conceding that title to say China. People would simply look other places for their goods.