MERGED: Has anyone read this (bankruptcy) about GM?

[eR1c]

Hello, I am a somewhat new poster here, yet have been eagerly following the progress of the new camaro (and reading these boards quite a bit). Forgive me if this has been posted somewhere else.

Is anyone concerned about GM not being able to release the Camaro next year because of the inevitable bankruptcy they face in the next month or so? I mean, it occurs to me that w/ the company doing so poorly they may cut back on many of the cars they release for production and sale. I know we all love the Camaro, yet it strikes me as a bit of a niche car and one that will not be bought by the masses. (especially because unemployment is near 7%, not everyone can get auto loans, and dealerships are closing left and right). Seems GM may want to only release cars that are direct competitors w/ Toyota, Honda, and Nissan? -I don't see the camaro being that car.

This is just a concern of mine, curious if anyone else is thinking similarly. (Let it be known that I love the look of the new Camaro and ain't trying to start anything here).

[The_Blur]

The Camaro will be released because too much has been invested in this project for GM not to release it. Additionally, initial demand has surprised dealers and GM, so this car will be a huge success. It wouldn't make sense to cancel a hugely successful platform.

On a side note, bankruptcy is not always the end of a company.

[camaros and vettes]

GM is not going anywhere. the government will not let anything happen to gm and ford. they are the two biggest corp. in the us. to many jobs would be lost and tax money not paid with the loss of 5 million jobs in one shot. imo.

[AZCamaroFan]

I'm worried about GM., how could i not be. If they stay in business i'm not worried about the Camaro though. They've already tooled up for it.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by fastball

I ask you now, what would have cost GM more in the last few years? Eliminating more divisions (Buick, Pontiac, Saab, GMC) and facing the bombardment of lawsuits by dealers, or a complete meltdown of the entire company? GM is surely in no better shape today keeping with what I now consider frivolous nameplates (Chevy and Cadillac are the only nameplates GM needs right now, and I know this is a bold statement to make to you but with all due respect I can argue why there hasn't been a need for anything but Caddy and Chevy for the last 5 years) than they would have been had they eliminated them, and dealt with the aftershock accordingly.

How does one oppose the other? The costs of eliminating a brand...or multiple brands as you say would FAR surpass what they're already paying for things. The aftershock...would have killed them. And then that company...the smaller..."leaner" company, still realing from the aftershock, and possible already broke from paying off all those dealers, retirement deals, and restructuring...would have been knocked squarely over the head with this economic meltdown...if they had done as you say above -- they'd be dead right now without question.

I don't think GM needs to have as many brands as they do, either...but I think, more strongly, the last thing they needed to do in these past few years is spend a crapload of money to eliminate a bunch of brands.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

How does one oppose the other? The costs of eliminating a brand...or multiple brands as you say would FAR surpass what they're already paying for things. The aftershock...would have killed them. And then that company...the smaller..."leaner" company, still realing from the aftershock, and possible already broke from paying off all those dealers, retirement deals, and restructuring...would have been knocked squarely over the head with this economic meltdown...if they had done as you say above -- they'd be dead right now without question.

I don't think GM needs to have as many brands as they do, either...but I think, more strongly, the last thing they needed to do in these past few years is spend a crapload of money to eliminate a bunch of brands.

I don't buy it. Not one bit. They make those cuts over the last 10 years, all the while still building SUVs for Chevy and raking in the cash on those, and today GM is smaller with less overhead, less debt, and not burning through $2.5b a month. The cost of axing the divisions would have been around 10 billion. It takes $999,999,999.00 + $1 to equal a billion. That's what makes their current situation so huge..... the money they burn through in 4 months could have gone to cutting the fat. Thus, stopping the hemorage.

I figure it would take about 10 billion to cover everything if you want to axe 2or 3 divisions. A year ago, they had the cash to do it, and then the hemorage would have eased. Maybe not stop completely, but they would still be ahead of where they are now.

[eR1c]

your probably right (no worries w/ camaro being released, etc).

yet I to be honest I am worried for GM (and Ford). I did hear Obama mention that he was intent on not letting GM go under.

On another note, their stock is at $4.36 a share which is super super low. It may be a bargain or it may just be on it's way down to zero?

[kanys]

Yes Obama (having done a lot of his work in the Chicago area) knows how catastrophic GM's death (or any of the big three for that matter) would be to the economy, and he has stated that he will not let the American auto industry die. However, I think they are going to need help long before Jan 20th. I have confidence they will get the help they need from the government, since they have some good vehicles coming up. But I think they need to do some reforming in the area of having too many vehicles that compete with eachother, among other things.

[PsyDoc]

Remember though, GM is paying health costs of its retirees. The latest budget I heard this morning was that the big three now want $50 billion and 50% of that will go directly to covering retiree benefits. At some point, regardless of how much "leaner" the big three get, the costs of providing for retirees will become overly burdensome.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by PsyDoc

Remember though, GM is paying health costs of its retirees. The latest budget I heard this morning was that the big three now want $50 billion and 50% of that will go directly to covering retiree benefits. At some point, regardless of how much "leaner" the big three get, the costs of providing for retirees will become overly burdensome.

That's why 2010 is the key year - VEBA takes over the healthcare and retiree burden. So, GM is asking for the low interest loan just to get them to that point, and then (God willing) they will be relieved of that load.

[TAG UR IT]

I've been watching CNN and all the other news channels about this over the past couple days and have been wanting to mention this.

Apparently, giving that 25B to the auto industry is the TOP PRIORITY of the new pres-elect to be. I just watched it even 20 min ago on CNN....interviews and all. It was said that the auto industry is the back bone of the american economy and there was no way they could let that fall....thousands upon thousands of families would be affected and it would GREATLY hurt he american economy.....something the new folks up there are absolutely trying to avoid and are immediately trying to fix.

Personally, I was concerned for GM simply due to their losses. But, I know they have a VERY bright future in front of them with the Camaro, Volt, and all their other hybrid technology. It's just taking time to get there. And, in that time, they are losing. That is what concerned me. But, they will get the loan they need....which they will pay back with interest, I'm sure.

GM WILL BE FINE.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by fastball

I don't buy it. Not one bit. They make those cuts over the last 10 years, all the while still building SUVs for Chevy and raking in the cash on those, and today GM is smaller with less overhead, less debt, and not burning through $2.5b a month. The cost of axing the divisions would have been around 10 billion. It takes $999,999,999.00 + $1 to equal a billion. That's what makes their current situation so huge..... the money they burn through in 4 months could have gone to cutting the fat. Thus, stopping the hemorage.

I figure it would take about 10 billion to cover everything if you want to axe 2or 3 divisions. A year ago, they had the cash to do it, and then the hemorage would have eased. Maybe not stop completely, but they would still be ahead of where they are now.

You're proposition is too simple. That's why I don't buy what you're saying, though I respect (and somewhat agree) with your position. Particularly the "cutting the fat" comment....how many people have they just layed off/forced...*hrmhrm*..."persuaded" into early retirement? There's very little fat left at GM...what is happening to them now, I am convinced has nothing to do with brands or "fat". Their attitude and philosophy going into this probably didn't help -- but what they are going through is just a prime example of what everyone's going through -- nobody is buying things!

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by RallyFever

fbodfather: any chance of GM pushing up production on the Camaro to generate some guaranteed revenue????

Even if we were making BILLIONS of Dollars -we'd move it up if we could.

It's a case of ensuring that the new Camaro is everything you hoped for -- AND MORE........


YOu can't put a car out there that hasn't been fully engineered and VALIDATED!

[fbodfather]

wow -- Guys and Gals -- I can't keep up with the threads on THIS site let alone the many other sites I try to visit.

Let me make a few points.

>It's easy to say "you should have gotten rid of Pontiac/Buick/GMC/etc a while ago...........really? Did ANYONE see this disaster coming down the pike? (I mean the mortage meltdown followed by $4.00 gas followed by the Banking Industry meltdown - all in what? 9 months????? Would YOU get rid of a Division that sells over a half million profitable units a year??? WOULD YOU? Would you be SURE that all of those sales would flow to another GM Division? What about overhead you CAN'T just cut? Close a plant? That does NOT mean the costs stop -- go look at what we must pay those who are not working! Further, the cost to close one Division is well into the BILLIONS of dollars..........

>GM is doing everything in its power to avoid Chapter 11. EVEN if it Does go chapter 11, it does not mean the company goes away -- but it DOES mean that YOU, the U.S. taxpayer are going to be hit with a huge amount of 'legacy costs' ........

There is too much misinformation out there right now............and DON"T get me started on 'Bailout' -- because (everyone repeat in unison

It is NOT a BAILOUT we're asking for.


Lastly - I will quote someone from another site:

"...It's time for everyone to think of "US" rather than "ME"....."

Now THAT'S a wise man -- because THAT'S what got us thru two World wars........

Time to wake up America!

Our standard of living isn't free -- you'd better start thinking of what's in OUR (meaning U.S.) best interests............


Don't like GM? Then at least consider a Ford or A Chrysler -- you're helping everyone out.