GM posts $15.5 billion loss

[diddiyo]

so you're saying that companies like VW or Mercedes Benz, that are actually building new plants and therefore bringing new jobs, should be punished while GM, Ford etc, companies that at some point apparently missed to adjust to a changing market situation and are now cutting jobs, closing plants etc, should be bailed out because it is an "all american" company?

Doesn't make sense to me.

[stovt001]

Every country that has auto manufacturers doing business in the US helps their companies significantly. Japan basically bankrolled the Prius. As much as free trade would be beneficial, it just doesn't work out well for us if the other players don't play by the same rules. I'm not so much supportive of grants and aids to American companies as I am of penalizing companies that are unfairly subsidized by their governments. And that goes both ways, as I also think we need to stop subsidizing some of our other industries. Really, we just need to trade freely and fairly and have all governments stay out of it, but that is an entirely different discussion.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by diddiyo

so you're saying that companies like VW or Mercedes Benz, that are actually building new plants and therefore bringing new jobs, should be punished while GM, Ford etc, companies that at some point apparently missed to adjust to a changing market situation and are now cutting jobs, closing plants etc, should be bailed out because it is an "all american" company?

Doesn't make sense to me.

In short....yes. Protecting and supporting our own is more important than anything else in this country, imo. Not enough have sight of this....

They did NOT miss, because anyone who's got some stake in this country is suffering. GM is changing, and reacting. Those plants and jobs you mentioned are evidence of that, as unfortunate as it is. And is this not more of a reason to assist them?

And did I say bailed out? Did I say foriegn companies, or imported VEHICLES...?
I was specific in my wording for a reason.

Would you mind explaining your reasoning against supporting our own? Would you sell out all our jobs to foriegn entities? I can tell you that those foriegn companies aren't building plants and jobs here out of a good spirit towards the states. Hence my comment about the playing field.

[JaysonAych]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Not a full bailout. Never...that would be ridiculous in any industry. Lassiez-faire is a concept I believe in. But some support would be nice...there's no reason that a foreign manufacturer should have an easier time conducting business in this country than our OWN companies. That's the beef I have surrounding this issue.

Yeah, if the government's going to get involved with bailing a company out, it had better be for a damn good reason. When Chrysler was bailed out, with the economy already in terrible shape at that time, it would have been exponentially more devastating to the country to have such a large company and most of the suppliers and dealers go under with it. Because of that and also because Chrysler had such a good plan in place to restructure and just needed a bit of money to get turned around, it ended up working very well...they had 7 years to pay off the loan guarantees, and things went so well it only took them 3 years to do so.

There are a lot of other things the government could do to help level the playing field not only for the auto industry, but for all of the manufacturing sector in general, and not have to dabble with bailouts and rewarding companies that grossly mismanaged themselves into oblivion. Revamping the healthcare system so that companies don't have to shell out so much in benefits, pressuring Japan and other countries to stop manipulating their currency to give them advantages in other markets, offering more comprehensive assistance in developing alternative energy solutions, reviewing and restructuring legislation and regulations that are outdated or do more harm than good, etc.

[diddiyo]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

They did NOT miss

Well, they must have made something wrong, otherwise they wouldn't be in this situation. I understand that the whole car-sector isn't doing well right now, but GM/Ford/Chrysler are at the bottom.

I agree with stovt, "it would be nice if free trade was fair and equal" etc. and it would of course be nice if Gm/Ford etc wouldn't be in this situation. But the government simply shouldn't be responsible for bailing out companies. There's more important areas that could use the money right now, like education, public transportaion and health care.

I think the introduction of CAFE ratings etc is a great start. They're showing the car companies the right direction. How to get there, well, that's what they're supposed to figure out on their own!

It's kind of like California banning trans fats. Now food companies have to figure out a way to make better, healthier food.

*edit*
lol, jayson was faster with some of the stuff i wrote

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by diddiyo

Well, they must have made something wrong, otherwise they wouldn't be in this situation.

yep. They catered to the market...when trucks were big. Within two years trucks are OUT. It wasn't a mistake; though the media would like you to think it was because it makes a story. It was an unfortunate turn of events; suddenly trucks are out, thier biggest breadwinner when they were in demand. GM = caught with their pants down. It amazing really how quick the market shifted. Now, compound that with the economy in general; and a bad reputation that was of their own doing........baaaaad situation. But it doesn't mean they did something "wrong".

Originally Posted by diddiyo

I agree with stovt, "it would be nice if free trade was fair and equal" etc. and it would of course be nice if Gm/Ford etc wouldn't be in this situation. But the government simply shouldn't be responsible for bailing out companies. There's more important areas that could use the money right now, like education, public transportaion and health care.

I think the introduction of CAFE ratings etc is a great start. They're showing the car companies the right direction. How to get there, well, that's what they're supposed to figure out on their own!

If they feel it's their responsibilty to tell companies HOW to do buisiness (ie CAFE), then I feel it's their responsibility to HELP them do business. The whole CAFE thing is quite against Lassiez-Faire to begin with, and very stupid in concept, imo. The market shift for more efficient cars would have gotten the automakers there just as efficiently. But no. The gov't; in typical gov't fashion...gave a ridculous order; and left the body to fend for itself. THAT is what the gov't shouldn't be doing....

[Muscle Master]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

yep. They catered to the market...when trucks were big. Within two years trucks are OUT. It wasn't a mistake; though the media would like you to think it was because it makes a story. It was an unfortunate turn of events; suddenly trucks are out, thier biggest breadwinner when they were in demand. GM = caught with their pants down. It amazing really how quick the market shifted. Now, compound that with the economy in general; and a bad reputation that was of their own doing........baaaaad situation. But it doesn't mean they did something "wrong".



If they feel it's their responsibilty to tell companies HOW to do buisiness (ie CAFE), then I feel it's their responsibility to HELP them do business. The whole CAFE thing is quite against Lassiez-Faire to begin with, and very stupid in concept, imo. The market shift for more efficient cars would have gotten the automakers there just as efficiently. But no. The gov't; in typical gov't fashion...gave a ridculous order; and left the body to fend for itself. THAT is what the gov't shouldn't be doing....

Agreed, If your not going to help, Shut the Fuc* up and let us do business are way

[stovt001]

Originally Posted by diddiyo

Well, they must have made something wrong, otherwise they wouldn't be in this situation. I understand that the whole car-sector isn't doing well right now, but GM/Ford/Chrysler are at the bottom.

I agree with stovt, "it would be nice if free trade was fair and equal" etc. and it would of course be nice if Gm/Ford etc wouldn't be in this situation. But the government simply shouldn't be responsible for bailing out companies. There's more important areas that could use the money right now, like education, public transportaion and health care.

I think the introduction of CAFE ratings etc is a great start. They're showing the car companies the right direction. How to get there, well, that's what they're supposed to figure out on their own!

It's kind of like California banning trans fats. Now food companies have to figure out a way to make better, healthier food.

*edit*
lol, jayson was faster with some of the stuff i wrote

I think you dramatically misunderstood what I was saying. The government should never force companies to make a decision that the market itself can easily dictate.

[Muscle Master]

Chrysler seems to be doing very well:

Motor Trend Article

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

IWould you mind explaining your reasoning against supporting our own?

I may be in the minority on this site but I'll give you a great example....QUALITY. My first car was a GMC Sonoma that I bought brand new off the lot in 1992. This was during all the animosity against foreign car makers and I wanted to support the U.S. It was a good deal on "special" at $9588 +TTL had a 2.8L V6 and was an XLT model with all the dress up goodies.

Unfortuneately the truck was just so so quality wise. It rattled, squeeked etc. I eventually traded it in for a Toyota 4x4 PU which was built so tight that you had to slam the doors or they wouldn't shut. That Toyota really opened my eyes. I've since owned 4 other Toyota trucks and all have been flawless. Built tight and last FOREVER with no problems. They hold their values better because EVERYONE knows these facts.

American car companies relied on the "more powerful" and "bigger" concepts to sell their products. Japanese auto makers relied on "reliable" and "efficient" to sell theirs. Once gas hit the roof in the U.S. like it did in the rest of the world some time ago, "efficient" and "reliable" became much more important than "more powerful".

Some Americans just don't take pride in their work. About half of my Japanese cars were made in Japan and half were made in the U.S, to some degree Canada and Mexico as well. It's amazing what a difference there is in the fit and finish between the two. The Japanese built cars are MUCH better. Japanese employees will practically kill themselves (literally) if they think their job isn't being done properly. There's even a famous cliff where a lot of them jump to their deaths. Most Americans just want to get a paycheck and get the heck out. We're just more spoiled in this country and that rolls down hill in to the products we produce.

I'm all for some nice powerful offerings in the market (i.e. Camaro) however GM will need to also have SEVERAL efficient models to chose from that build a reputation of lasting forever and needing very little maintenance to be competive as that will be their bread and butter.

Camaros, Corvettes, and big trucks are going to become novelty items as few will be able to afford the gas these vehicles will require to be daily drivers. Farmers will still drive trucks when needed, but I bet you see more also move to owning an around town car that is a small efficient model. Folks like us who appreciate big power are a VERY small minority in the grand scheme of things and GM can't survive on one model alone.

If GM can build smaller more efficient cars that last forever this will work out great of us, as GM will have it's profits come back in line which will in turn allow them to put more development into the novelty cars this forum caters to.

Just my .02 cents.

[Tomash]

Guys, please, stop bitchin' about gas prices. They're twice as high in countries where salaries are half or even third of US salaries. And somehow people drive there.
I know You've seen the gas price double for the last year or so, but you still have it pretty cheap. Seriously.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by Tomash

Guys, please, stop bitchin' about gas prices. They're twice as high in countries where salaries are half or even third of US salaries. And somehow people drive there.
I know You've seen the gas price double for the last year or so, but you still have it pretty cheap. Seriously.

Most of the countries you describe also have a good, if not great, public transportation system making a car almost un-necessary. Also, most of the cars they drive in Europe are small gas sippers.

We don't have those things here in the U.S. to help offset high gas prices. The AVG commute is 40 miles a day.

[Kyle2k]

At least we are getting the CRUZE...I am really excited about this car tbh! 1 gallon for that aforementioned trip!