Maybe corn isn't good...

[TAG UR IT]

Well, they need 2 1/2 years. Sure, there's a plant going up in the next year, but that's on the small, small scale...I guess to show they can do it. But, if they can do it, they will be the leader in the business...selling all the product at no time at all, making back what they put into it, and will end up building more large scale plants. By then, we all will be getting a minor share (usage) of their fuels, more will want to get in on the action, Coskata will have 5 or 6 facilities open and will be cleaning house.

I wonder...is this really going to happen. I'm sure the cost, like it's been said before, will be more than a buck for all of us per gallon. We do have to figure in shipping, handling, employees, profit, etc. However, I'm VERY excited to hear this.

[DGthe3]

even if it costs 3x as much as they claim, its still very good.
Let me say this again:

Corn based ethanol bad; Cellulose based ethanol good

[radz28]

WOW; that's pretty friggin' cool. I definately hope GM makes Camaro compatable. I'd be happy even if they could keep prices around where they were a few weeks ago. I'm not trying to spend $7 a gallon like 100 octane is around here...

[yourbassist]

At first, ethanol was just this junk they sold at Casey's for a few cents cheaper that would randomly kill my car when I used it for the first time. Then they decided to begin full-scale production for our consumption. I am no Keynes or Freidman, but I am a finance major. My take on ethanol comes from an entirely economic/fiscal perspective. I'd like to use this example to prove why we should stick to gasoline until we find something better. Yes, it does take gasoline to transport products places, but the 1 million products being delivered to the grocery store that have corn in them only took 1 truck. Would you rather pay more for those 1 million items that have corn in them or the 10,000 reasons we use gas? Plain and simple, we use corn in 90%, if not more, of the stuff you find in any food product. Sure, I don't want to run out of gasoline, but I also don't want to pay $8 for my bowl of Cap'n Crunch. I'd rather pay $5 for my gas to go buy my groceries than pay more for all of my groceries. Yes, this is simplified, but that's economics. Ceteris Paribus folks.

*All numbers are arbitrary and the 90% is an estimate, but honestly, look at the ingredients list next time you're shopping.

[radz28]

I heard something on Tom Sullivan's radio show yesterday regarding this and there were some intersting opinions regarding how using the corn will effect things that I would not have expected. Some of the calls and input from the listeners didn't reflect the information from the source above, but there were a bunch of points that I hadn't even considered.

[Mr. Wyndham]

This is what I mean when I say Ethanol:

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Corn based ethanol bad; Cellulose based ethanol good

This is gonna be the next bgi hurtle(sp?) I think. Convincing people that there's more to ethanol than corn.

[blindingillusion]

Corn is actually just about one of the worst things you can use in terms of cost to yield. There are grasses out there that yield well over 100% in cellulose processing, and cow sh*t has amazing yields as well.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

This is what I mean when I say Ethanol:


This is gonna be the next bgi hurtle(sp?) I think. Convincing people that there's more to ethanol than corn.

You spelled big wrong, but hurtle right. Unfortunately that is not the word you were trying to spell. You meant to say hurdle, as in obstacle, not hurtle as in 'the car hurtled down the highway with great speed'

(i did not know this stuff off the top of my head, I looked it up

[Mr. Wyndham]

Just found this.
Cellulosic Ethanol prices are projected to now be BELOW $1.

I'm telling you guys, once this gets off the ground, our V8's WILL have a bright future.

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/scien...nol-15626.html

Following up on a net-energy study published in the January Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), a team of Agricultural Research Service (ARS) and University of Nebraska-Lincoln (UNL) scientists today reports the on-farm economic costs of producing switchgrass for cellulosic ethanol.

In their PNAS energy-analysis paper, the team reported that switchgrass, when used for cellulosic ethanol, yielded over five times more energy than required to produce the fuel. In this month's edition of the journal BioEnergy Research, the team describes their study's second part, which examined the farm-scale production costs of switchgrass. Richard Perrin of UNL and Ken Vogel, Marty Schmer and Rob Mitchell--all in the ARS Grain, Forage and Bioenergy Research Unit at Lincoln--conducted the studies.

According to Perrin and Vogel, this study is the most comprehensive one completed to date assessing the economic costs of producing switchgrass biomass on commercial fields. The team contracted with 10 farmers in Nebraska, North Dakota and South Dakota to commercially grow switchgrass for five years, starting in 2000 and 2001. Throughout the study, the farmers recorded all costs for producing switchgrass biomass, from seed and fertilizer expenses to equipment and labor costs. Total baled biomass yields were recorded for each farm.

On average, switchgrass production costs were $60 per ton. Two farmers with previous experience growing switchgrass were able to limit production costs to $39 a ton. They were among a group of five farmers whose production costs were $50 or less per ton. That's something farmers elsewhere could probably achieve as they, too, gain production experience with switchgrass, the researchers suggest. Based on the $50-per-ton figure, and assuming a conversion efficiency of 80 to 90 gallons per ton, the farmgate production cost of cellulosic ethanol from switchgrass would be about $0.55 to $0.62 per gallon.

Perrin and the ARS agronomists expect production costs will also decline as new, "ethanol-friendly" cultivars are developed.

ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research agency.

[blindingillusion]

Switchgrass, thats the ticket. I had read this before but I forgot the plant they were using.

At anyrate, that is just using switch grass, which you have production costs in growing. Biomass generators that can use switch grass can also use old wood, tires, and other waste products. Using a multitude of different sources can push the costs down to ridiculous levels.

Mark my words, if this technology and way of thinking takes off then our dependence on oil is going to go down dramatically.

[Phantasm]

All this sounds amazing, but I thought I read once that ethanol doesn't work well with high-performance engines? I think it was in reference to the LS9 in the ZR1, but I can't be sure.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

All this sounds amazing, but I thought I read once that ethanol doesn't work well with high-performance engines? I think it was in reference to the LS9 in the ZR1, but I can't be sure.

Actually, quite the opposite is true. E85 has an octane rating of something like ~105...Which can allow for MUCH higher compression ratios, which can equal much greater power! (depends on how you utilize the CR's; fuel savings, or extra power)

Cars like the ZR-1 probably aren't aimed towards those looking into Alternative fuels...so why put the added complexity into it?

http://jalopnik.com/cars/sema/sema-2...but-316031.php
Jay Leno seems to be doin' alright with his 600hp E85 Corvette!!

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Actually, quite the opposite is true. E85 has an octane rating of something like ~105...Which can allow for MUCH higher compression ratios, which can equal much greater power! (depends on how you utilize the CR's; fuel savings, or extra power)

Cars like the ZR-1 probably aren't aimed towards those looking into Alternative fuels...so why put the added complexity into it?

http://jalopnik.com/cars/sema/sema-2...but-316031.php
Jay Leno seems to be doin' alright with his 600hp E85 Corvette!!

Well, I happily stand corrected!

[hazzmatt]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Just found this.
Cellulosic Ethanol prices are projected to now be BELOW $1.

Is that the cost of production? I think I read earlier in this thread that it costs less than a dollar to produce gasoline. Yet, the consumer price is obviously much higher. Of course, even if the end cost of ethanol is about the same as what we pay for fuel now, the lowered dependence on foreign oil would be a huge benefit. (As well as possibly being a bit "greener".)