09-26-2009, 04:17 PM | #43 | |||
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09-26-2009, 05:16 PM | #44 |
Petro-sexual
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Good find. This might help some people, with extreme worries about the OEM LSA pistons.
Thanks
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09-26-2009, 10:12 PM | #45 | |
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haha yeah sometimes i get a little carried away and type a lot, but still thanks much, and yeah thats very true, im just not sure if todays market would work with the 60s set-up, i mean everything now is so linear and everyone's looking for the "next best" instead of just a car with different pros and cons so idk i could go for either fashion but the only thing that bugs me with today's idea is that you're gonna be giving your golden right nut for the good stuff, LOL here's an idea, what if most, if not all, Z/28s were built on an "on-order" basis, where the customer ordering the car got to choose a crate engine and minor mods to each engine (such as cam) for the car to be built with? Are my ideas getting too far fetched yet? What if you could order specific air bags that when they inflate they take the shape of T-pain's head! XD Yeepp, im gettin there... |
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09-27-2009, 08:05 AM | #46 |
Owner of Shunt
Drives: 2001 Mustang GT vert Join Date: Jun 2008
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I hope an engine is made using a mixture of the LSA and LS9 in their thoughts.
Basically the LSA's 1.9L supercharger, cam specs, and same build dimensions, but have in mind the LS9's bottom end strength. Doesnt have to be titanium, but just general forged pieces like a 03-04 Cobra and GT500 would use. I think that would keep the cost reasonable and mass producable aka LS8?
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09-27-2009, 09:13 AM | #47 |
Drives: 2008 Shelby GT/SC Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
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Questions About Intercooler/Heat Exchanger Design
Dragon,
Thanks for the write up. Because you put so much time into it, perhaps you have some information on the intercooler and heat exchanger beyond what is written. While the intercooler design is touted as something that "raises the bar in both packaging and efficiency," I do not see that design as being able to improve on the more traditional design which has the heat exchanger located away from the motor and the heat produced by the motor. Maybe I am missing something (and I hope I am as the overall "look" of the unit is very appealing) but this design would not do anything to diminish heat soak and would seem to work in the opposite direction, given its location. What I have seen of late is a heat exchanger with twin puller fans. You can see it on the Revan Racing web site (revanracing.com). Ignore the fact that it is not engineered for GM products yet but you can see that their approach should apply to any applicaiton, assuming there is room for it. These big motors throw off a lot of heat and the problem with the 5.4 Ford motors that are supercharged (the motor addressed by Revan Racing) is heat soak. The GT500, as powerful as it is, cannot make its advertised power for a long period; not without something like what the Revan Racing set up does. Is your sense that heat soak is the common enemy with any supercharged motor and, yet, you rarely see it discussed? Thanks, again, for the write up. The Z/28 is a car that needs to be built. Those of us who ran muscle cars in the 60's remember when the original version hit the streets. Sure would like to see it back, particularly with a power set up like this. Jim
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2008 Shelby GT/SC Mustang, Vista Blue with Silver Stripes, 5-Speed, Coupe, Center gauge cluster, Kenne Bell supercharger, Front and rear brake ducts, AP Racing brakes (6-piston front, 4-piston rear), Fays2 Watts Link, Metco upper and lower control arms, BBR 3.5" aluminum drive shaft, BMR front drive shaft safety loop; Autopower four point roll bar, Autopower five point racing harnesses (both sides), and Camber/caster plates. Dyno results: 453 rear wheel torque, 447 rear wheel horse power @ 67 degrees F, 75% humidity @ sea level.
Last edited by clark17357; 09-27-2009 at 10:01 AM. |
09-27-2009, 10:13 AM | #48 | |
Waiting...
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09-27-2009, 01:40 PM | #49 | |
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09-27-2009, 04:24 PM | #50 | |
I used to be Dragoneye...
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Here are some pictures of the supercharger/intercooler to start you off: Where traditional positive-displacement systems (like the GT500) have an intercooler mounted in between the supercharger and the engine block, the LSA's approach is very different, and offers a number of advantages. The supercharger is flipped upside-down, and pushes air UP, into the intercooler brick + intake housing. This design lets the supercharger belt be a little shorter, it allows the intercooler to be far more effeciently designed, and it allows the air to take a straighter path down into the cylinder, resulting in more torque. It's a water-to-air system, so the heat-exhanger is mounted traditionally -- that is, down with the radiator and oil coolers, etc. As it was written in the article, this design drops the intake temperature over 150 degress...which is very important for durability and performance. I'm sure GM doesn't condone the use of ice, or ice-chilled water...but with an intercooler this efficient, if someone were to cool the liquid down. You would see tremendous power gains, I think. |
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09-27-2009, 05:34 PM | #51 | |
Drives: 2008 Shelby GT/SC Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
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Very interesting design. I am going to do some homework on it as I had not seen it before. More torque and a cooler air charge is a pretty unbeatable combination. Jim
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2008 Shelby GT/SC Mustang, Vista Blue with Silver Stripes, 5-Speed, Coupe, Center gauge cluster, Kenne Bell supercharger, Front and rear brake ducts, AP Racing brakes (6-piston front, 4-piston rear), Fays2 Watts Link, Metco upper and lower control arms, BBR 3.5" aluminum drive shaft, BMR front drive shaft safety loop; Autopower four point roll bar, Autopower five point racing harnesses (both sides), and Camber/caster plates. Dyno results: 453 rear wheel torque, 447 rear wheel horse power @ 67 degrees F, 75% humidity @ sea level.
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09-27-2009, 06:30 PM | #52 |
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Hmm question? If the Z/28 uses the LSA, the LSA does not have forged pistons so how much of a ceiling would one have for mods? I highly doubt 700rwhp from a pulley swap would be wise like the GT-500 boys are doing. Any thoughts?
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09-27-2009, 06:59 PM | #53 |
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Hard to tell what the max would be. Alot more has to be done to the motor than just a pulley swap, 700rwhp is like 800hp+ at the crank. Currently the LSA is at 556 at the crank at 9psi with 9.1 compression ratio. So it looks like a bump in compression, cam change, pulley swap, full exhaust mods will be needed to acheave those power levels. Also the current H/E and intercooler system will need to be upgraded to.
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09-27-2009, 07:30 PM | #54 | |
I used to be Dragoneye...
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Lingenfelter has a warrantied kit designed to boost power to LS9 levels...they don't replace any internals. And Hennessy has a kit good for 700hp without replacing any internals...no word on a warranty...though I didn't check very far into it. Let's put it this way...the engine won't blow up if you do a little modifying. But I look at it the same as the LS3. But you wouldn't put 600hp through a stock LS3 without worrying, and so you probably shouldn't put 800hp through a stock LSA without worrying. Even the LS9 with all its titanium isn't indestructible........ I personally doubt that the GT500 guys are putting all that power so easily with unaffected reliability...but I can't get any specs on the engine from Ford...they're nowhere near as transparent about this stuff like GM...it would make this discussion so much easier. |
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09-27-2009, 07:50 PM | #55 | |
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Here is a thread that discusses the blown Ford 5.4 motor and its specs. Does this help? http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/ind...6919&hl=forged Jim
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2008 Shelby GT/SC Mustang, Vista Blue with Silver Stripes, 5-Speed, Coupe, Center gauge cluster, Kenne Bell supercharger, Front and rear brake ducts, AP Racing brakes (6-piston front, 4-piston rear), Fays2 Watts Link, Metco upper and lower control arms, BBR 3.5" aluminum drive shaft, BMR front drive shaft safety loop; Autopower four point roll bar, Autopower five point racing harnesses (both sides), and Camber/caster plates. Dyno results: 453 rear wheel torque, 447 rear wheel horse power @ 67 degrees F, 75% humidity @ sea level.
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09-27-2009, 08:32 PM | #56 |
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Also, these part of the LSA information article stuck out:
"The LS9s pistons are made of forged aluminum. The key difference in material choice here, is the desire for refinement in the Cadillac application." "The cam design also reduces operating noise compared to the naturally aspirated 6.2L Corvette LS-3 V-8 by one decibel. While the change might not seem significant by itself, it combines with similar incremental improvements through the LSA that reduce interior noise in the 2009 CTS-V substantially compared its predecessor" "The camshaft operates the engine's valves, and its design is crucial to both power and smoothness. The torque enhancing benefits of the supercharger allowed GM engineers to develop a "softer," lower-lift camshaft for the LSA, compared to the typical high-rev, high-power super-sedan engine. The LSA cam delivers maximum lift of 12.2 mm for both the intake and exhaust valves. Moreover, the cam lobes are profiled to reduce the amount of time that both intake and exhaust valves are partially open at the same time. Valve overlap is reduced compared the previous, LS2-powered CTS-V, despite the substantial increase in output. The result is smoother operation at low speeds, and particularly at idle." With these statement, (maybe Im nit-picking) the LSA seems more geared and refined for the Caddy application. With a car like the Z28, I would think the designers would want the things they tried to omit with their design detail with the LSA. Words like a SOFT, SMOOTHER, QUIETER.....isnt what we are thinking when we want to sit idle with a SS with GMPP exhaust next to us. Im still thinking that an engine made between the LSA and LS9 is in order. GM knows these car will be ran harder on the average than a Caddy. Plus i would hate to think that they would let there own "GMPP" miss out on warrantied upgrades to contend with FRPP upgrades on a GT500. I have faith that GM is smart to do this. They have been so far with the details. If they push out L99s JUST for automatic Camaros to avoid gas guzzler tax, I believe they would at least expect and prepare for the stress and expectations that the Camaro's breed of customer will put on a Z28. Making a "LS8" or "mongoose" with forged material (not titanium) and having its power output between 556hp and 600hp would be a good benchmark and insurance against a crippling load of warranty claim. Do it right the first time. At least put it on par with the strength of the GT500's 5.4L and boost its power output a little above to add to the snake's insult.
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Last edited by Jinx; 09-27-2009 at 08:42 PM. |
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