Too little too late? - Page 2 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

*The_Blur* · 03-17-2008, 09:59 PM

GM might as well stand for "genius manufacturer." They have innovated some of the greatest cars of automotive history, proving time and time again that this monstrous corporation really cares about their products. Sure, they've had hard times, but don't forget about them designing all that they have done. When Buick's founder started building General Motors 100 years ago, he intended to dominate the automotive industry with products for everyone. That means he had to compete with every brand for every demographic to sell his cars.

We're looking at a time where the traditional means of performance may have to be modified. This is the first time that performance will have to incorporate means other than ordinary gas. I'm going to start with electrics. We all know generally how a circuit works. If we can come up with a powerful energy source and a means of conveying it, we can get more power. More power means that we the V8 lovers will have to worry about more than the occasional twin-turbo 4-banger. We've got to worry about hybrids with extra batteries. There will be more performance coming, but these CAFE regulations just mean that we'll plateau for a short while. The numbers won't go up, but I don't think anyone is willing to let those numbers fall. We all remember those days of ugly, slow 4-bangers running the streets. We don't want to go back to that, and GM is well aware. Expect CAFE to limit performance for just a little while, but soon we'll be seeing innovation.

It's science. Someone who loves cars as much as we do is in a laboratory with a whole lot of test tubes trying to figure out how to make corn into race fuel that emits next to nothing. That scientist will eventually come to a great conclusion and devise a new theory. We just need to continue investing in green industries by buying green products, endorsing green legislation, and pursuing green means of doing what we already do. As interest and demand grow, more and more scientists will compete aggressively for green grants-in-aid to pay for expensive research that will soon lead to green power sources that will compete with the power sources already available today. When that happens, we'll see 250-horsepower Chevy Volts and corn-powered drag-racing Camaros all over the place. It'll be beautiful. We just need to be patient. I promise you that as long as we show our love for cars, someone will listen. One of the great things about GM is that they are made up of great listeners like fbodfather who seek out the opinions of those who know what they want. What do we want? We want these CAFE regulations to lead to a new era in power that doesn't kill brain cells when we smell the exhaust. When GM does it, they'll be ahead of the market. Keep the faith.

The_Stache · 03-17-2008, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LS9CamaroSS

If GM isn't taking its time then why the hell is the challenger out already?! i want my damn CAMARO!!! but i also want it to last... i see the volt being a practical car wit good performance times. a new auto maker called Tesla (named after the inventor of the battery Nikola Tesla) has a car that is either a concept or a pre-production vehicle that is full electric based on the Elise. it goes to 60 in 4.4 secs and it has great pick up in the mid range. i'll find the artical at C&D and post it here.

Couple of things..

1. the challenger is nothing more than a 300C SRT8 with new body tins.

2. The tesla roadster has been in development since 2004.

3. The tesla roadster does 0-60 in 4.7 seconds (due to a transmission change).

4. Cafe regulations are for future vehicles and wont take full effect until 2020.

5. Learn the meaning of the acronym CAFE.

6. In the 70's we where going to run out of gas too...

7. The worlds oil supply has peaked, from here its downhill that means you have a good estimated 40-50 years before we are "out" of oil.

8. If you are still driving by the time we run out of oil I feel sorry for the people who will have to live with you on the road.

That is all

kinyu · 03-17-2008, 10:21 PM

I haven't read most of the replies, so this is probably already covered, but:
The camaro might be behind the mustang and the challenger (sort of) in its release, but I believe the time they are investing in this is providing us a vastly superior automobile than those two. GM could have given us a vehicle on an already existing platform (G8?) but then quality would have suffered.
It just depends on what we are looking for.
As for the fuel standards, keep in mind these aren't new. CAFE standards have been in existence for a while, they are just getting tighter. For every car they produce that gets great fuel mileage, they get to have a car that maybe doesn't get as good. Although keep in mind, I think we will pleasantly surprised when we see the mileage rating on the camaro.

*The_Blur* · 03-17-2008, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diarmadhi

If you are still driving by the time we run out of oil I feel sorry for the people who will have to live with you on the road.

I plan on being a multimillionaire with a driver, a butler, maids, a large car collection, and multiple estates. I won't need to drive!

I can dream, can't I?

stovt001 · 03-18-2008, 12:44 AM

To reiterate what has been said about the Challenger, essentially it is a two door Charger with different body panels. Otherwise, it is nearly identical, down to the interior. How hard is it to slap a new two door body style on an existing car and keep everything else the same? So it is actually disappointing how long it took Dodge to get the Challenger out.

Is GM taking longer to make the Camaro than they could have? Sure. But they are taking extra time as a quality investment. Doing a rush job on a new product isn't a wise idea. As my boss is fond of saying, its not that you can't; its that you shouldn't.

Emu the Foo · 03-18-2008, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stovt001

To reiterate what has been said about the Challenger, essentially it is a two door Charger with different body panels. Otherwise, it is nearly identical, down to the interior. How hard is it to slap a new two door body style on an existing car and keep everything else the same? So it is actually disappointing how long it took Dodge to get the Challenger out.

Is GM taking longer to make the Camaro than they could have? Sure. But they are taking extra time as a quality investment. Doing a rush job on a new product isn't a wise idea. As my boss is fond of saying, its not that you can't; its that you shouldn't.

very true. why did chrysler take sooooooooo long to do that. well they weren't thinking. look at the charger. Think die hard fans of the charger all went out and bought one right away, although its nothing like an original charger??? where people lining up around the block to get one??? no. the camaro is great and gm is AWESOME

nuff said

*KILLER74Z28* · 03-18-2008, 01:23 AM

Holy crap, where’s my chest high waders… It’s getting deep in here…

And I heard and she said and my neighbor’s dog barked...

*TAG UR IT* · 03-18-2008, 01:30 AM

Do I need to say anything? ummmm....

ok.

Clean sheet of paper. Anyone remember these words??? Ya know where I'm goin' with this?

END.

LS9CamaroSS · 03-18-2008, 02:52 AM

8. If you are still driving by the time we run out of oil I feel sorry for the people who will have to live with you on the road

seeing as I'm only 20 i hope to be driving in 40-50 years... i understand now the shortened charger platform is something i hadn't thought of before now and I'm sorry i missed the Tesla's acceleration by.3 of a sec i knew it was somewhere in there i've been crucified on here so i guess i'll go away with my tale between my legs... i didn't fully understand the CAFE regulations before now so thank you.

But a little more respect would have been nice and sure does go a long way........

SilverTurtle · 03-18-2008, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LS9CamaroSS

8. If you are still driving by the time we run out of oil I feel sorry for the people who will have to live with you on the road

seeing as I'm only 20 i hope to be driving in 40-50 years... i understand now the shortened charger platform is something i hadn't thought of before now and I'm sorry i missed the Tesla's acceleration by.3 of a sec i knew it was somewhere in there i've been crucified on here so i guess i'll go away with my tale between my legs... i didn't fully understand the CAFE regulations before now so thank you.

But a little more respect would have been nice and sure does go a long way........

well, you weren't crucified... not compared to others who have come on here and screamed, "the sky is falling!" at the top of their lungs... this has actually been a pretty respectful thread, the second one in a matter of a day or two... so if you choose to leave, good luck in your leaving, but do not blame it on the good people of this forum.

I really do wish that people would quit crying and whining about how bad things might be... if you think that GM, Chrysler, Ford, et al, aren't working on meeting the 35mpg 2020 CAFE standard, you're either naive or stupid... while the Camaro, G8 and ZR1 are cars that would normally be affected, the most important part of CAFE to remember is the A, which stands for Average... by making 4cylinder cars, dual mode hybrids (which the Camaro might be available as) and DI diesels and gasoline V8s, the 35mpg CAFE mark might not be as far off as it would seem... so please, sit back, enjoy the site and "have faith"... I promise, the sky is not falling.

*DGthe3* · 03-18-2008, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

I really do wish that people would quit crying and whining about how bad things might be... if you think that GM, Chrysler, Ford, et al, aren't working on meeting the 35mpg 2020 CAFE standard, you're either naive or stupid... while the Camaro, G8 and ZR1 are cars that would normally be affected, the most important part of CAFE to remember is the A, which stands for Average... by making 4cylinder cars, dual mode hybrids (which the Camaro might be available as) and DI diesels and gasoline V8s, the 35mpg CAFE mark might not be as far off as it would seem... so please, sit back, enjoy the site and "have faith"... I promise, the sky is not falling.

Plus there are the E-flex cars like the Volt, the ethanol loophole, and the question about hydrogen. As the average is calculated right now, aslight boost in fuel economy combined with the option of using E85 on all vehicles, GM could nearly meet the 35 mpg CAFE standard. Its important to realize that GM sells nearly 4 million cars in the US each year, and by the time the Camaro comes out they might sell 150k high performance V8's. If they were to average 20 mpg, the rest of the fleet would need to make 35.6 mpg. Thats not a whole lot of differance. And odds are, those V8's would get better mileage than that.

Silverado · 03-18-2008, 10:42 AM

I don't really want to rehash the whole "Challenger is a re-dressed Charger thing", so I won't....I'll just make a couple points here.

Tesla...fantastic concept, decent excution of that concept....couple problems....not a $75K car, it's over $100K. Not within the reach of the "normal" buyer. Another problem...it's a 2 seater....not practical enough for most people....another problem...if you are using that other seat for a passenger, your "cargo space" is now too small to carry your briefcase to work....another problem....limited production...meaning higher prices, too few of them to really matter, etc....and finally, $100K for a car that you will have to replace the transmission in at about 5K miles? Come on...this car is still in the development...but, by all means, keep it going...serious potential.

Someone asked about any vehicles in recent memory that had "shorter" concept-to-production times....the Viper...18 months, the Prowler...also 18 months...the New Beetle was somewhere in the 20 month category...there are others, but you get the point. It can be done. I'm not arguing for or against the time it's taken for the Camaro (it is what it is), I'm just saying it can be done.

CAFE....what people don't take into account when they start panicking about the standards....it does count across the manufacutuer's line....so for every Camaro sold that gets 25-30mpg, you need to sell one Aveo that gets 40-45mpg. For every Hybrid Tahoe that gets 20-25mpg, you need to sell one Saturn Vue hybrid that gets 45-50mpg...they are basically doing that today...it won't be as big a leap as people think. (Don't get me wrong...the government should stay the hell out of it and let the market drive the products...if people want better gas mileage, that's what the people will buy and that's what the manufacturers will produce...the government shouldn't have any say in it either way.) The point is, it isn't that far off...hybrids help raise the average, so keeping a performance car or a large SUV in the lineup doesn't hurt them as much as people worry about. They will be there. Electric cars shouldn't count towards that, in my opinion. Not using gasoline doesn't mean you get 100's of miles per gallon...you get 0 miles per gallon, you just don't use any gallons.

As for the oil running out....there is no one here on the message boards that will be around when the oil actually runs out...in fact, your kids won't be around. There is still so much oil, in our country alone, that there will be oil for a long time to come (if it weren't for the damn tree-hugging liberals, we'd be drilling it right now and the price of gas would still be under $2/gallon, but they can't keep their "green" noses out of it, which means the government has to get involved and we all know when the government gets involved it gets f&#$ed up (see the CAFE comments)). Does that mean we should wait to develop alternatives? No. What it means is that people need to stop wasting time and energy panicking about the oil and complaining about those using it and put the time and energy towards positive develoment of new energies/technologies. Those people complaining that GM and Ford are just making too many "big trucks and SUV's" or "why would anyone make/buy a V-8", etc....they are just part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Ford and Chrysler have some problems. Problems that may not let them keep going too much longer. That might not be a bad thing. But, GM has been putting out quality products for awhile now. By doing that, pushing the new technologies, and generally (no pun intended) doing things the right way, GM will be in a better position to stick around. And that definitely isn't a bad thing.

swazworth · 03-18-2008, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverado

(if it weren't for the damn tree-hugging liberals, we'd be drilling it right now and the price of gas would still be under $2/gallon, but they can't keep their "green" noses out of it, which means the government has to get involved and we all know when the government gets involved it gets f&#$ed up)

smike07 · 03-18-2008, 11:07 AM

GM will not suffer from the delay of the Camaro. Just from this forum alone, that's 2150 new Camaros sold. That's not to mention everyone who looks at this site as reliable information, those who fell in love with it when they saw Transformers, and those who have no idea the Camaro will be out in March of '09. GM will do fine. It's likely they won't be able to pump out enough to meet the supply and demand the first year of production. I know I'll probably have to wait. Think about it, the dealerships already have waiting lists. They have no idea how many they'll each get as of now, so the lists will keep growing until they get the Camaros to satisfy their customers. Then, they'll have the average Joe who walks in to get one right before another average Jan, and Jan decides she wants to offer a little more for the car. Then a bidding war happens because it's the only available one on the lot, (or any lot in a 200 mile radius) and so on, and so on... If GM can pump out about 150,000 within the first year of production, we MIGHT be alright. I'm not sure that's enough. This is a hot @ss car!

03-17-2008, 09:59 PM	#15
The_Blur Moderator Drives: 2018 Harley-Davidson Street Bob Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: San Diego Posts: 14,769	Yankee Ingenuity GM might as well stand for "genius manufacturer." They have innovated some of the greatest cars of automotive history, proving time and time again that this monstrous corporation really cares about their products. Sure, they've had hard times, but don't forget about them designing all that they have done. When Buick's founder started building General Motors 100 years ago, he intended to dominate the automotive industry with products for everyone. That means he had to compete with every brand for every demographic to sell his cars. We're looking at a time where the traditional means of performance may have to be modified. This is the first time that performance will have to incorporate means other than ordinary gas. I'm going to start with electrics. We all know generally how a circuit works. If we can come up with a powerful energy source and a means of conveying it, we can get more power. More power means that we the V8 lovers will have to worry about more than the occasional twin-turbo 4-banger. We've got to worry about hybrids with extra batteries. There will be more performance coming, but these CAFE regulations just mean that we'll plateau for a short while. The numbers won't go up, but I don't think anyone is willing to let those numbers fall. We all remember those days of ugly, slow 4-bangers running the streets. We don't want to go back to that, and GM is well aware. Expect CAFE to limit performance for just a little while, but soon we'll be seeing innovation. It's science. Someone who loves cars as much as we do is in a laboratory with a whole lot of test tubes trying to figure out how to make corn into race fuel that emits next to nothing. That scientist will eventually come to a great conclusion and devise a new theory. We just need to continue investing in green industries by buying green products, endorsing green legislation, and pursuing green means of doing what we already do. As interest and demand grow, more and more scientists will compete aggressively for green grants-in-aid to pay for expensive research that will soon lead to green power sources that will compete with the power sources already available today. When that happens, we'll see 250-horsepower Chevy Volts and corn-powered drag-racing Camaros all over the place. It'll be beautiful. We just need to be patient. I promise you that as long as we show our love for cars, someone will listen. One of the great things about GM is that they are made up of great listeners like fbodfather who seek out the opinions of those who know what they want. What do we want? We want these CAFE regulations to lead to a new era in power that doesn't kill brain cells when we smell the exhaust. When GM does it, they'll be ahead of the market. Keep the faith. __________________ RDP Motorsport//GEN5DIY//Cultrag Performance//JPSS//Rodgets Chevrolet// Operation Demon//Buy at Invoice//RACECARWEAR RESPECT ALL CARS. LOVE YOUR OWN. warn 145:159 ban

03-18-2008, 01:23 AM	#21
KILLER74Z28 MOD SQUAD Drives: 2G1FT1EW9A9100666 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: West Michigan Posts: 5,782 View My Garage	Holy crap, where’s my chest high waders… It’s getting deep in here… And I heard and she said and my neighbor’s dog barked... __________________ Who cares about the Blue Oval crowd and their little Ponys? We're getting our Camaro back-and it'll be Supercharged!-MDAII Team LS3

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03-17-2008, 10:21 PM	#17
kinyu Drives: POS Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 107	I haven't read most of the replies, so this is probably already covered, but: The camaro might be behind the mustang and the challenger (sort of) in its release, but I believe the time they are investing in this is providing us a vastly superior automobile than those two. GM could have given us a vehicle on an already existing platform (G8?) but then quality would have suffered. It just depends on what we are looking for. As for the fuel standards, keep in mind these aren't new. CAFE standards have been in existence for a while, they are just getting tighter. For every car they produce that gets great fuel mileage, they get to have a car that maybe doesn't get as good. Although keep in mind, I think we will pleasantly surprised when we see the mileage rating on the camaro.

03-18-2008, 12:44 AM	#19
stovt001 Drives: 2006 Cobalt, 2004 Taurus wagon Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: California Posts: 3,812	To reiterate what has been said about the Challenger, essentially it is a two door Charger with different body panels. Otherwise, it is nearly identical, down to the interior. How hard is it to slap a new two door body style on an existing car and keep everything else the same? So it is actually disappointing how long it took Dodge to get the Challenger out. Is GM taking longer to make the Camaro than they could have? Sure. But they are taking extra time as a quality investment. Doing a rush job on a new product isn't a wise idea. As my boss is fond of saying, its not that you can't; its that you shouldn't.

03-18-2008, 01:30 AM	#22
TAG UR IT www.Camaro5store.com Drives: 2014 ZL1 #705 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: SA, Texas Posts: 26,558 View My Garage	Do I need to say anything? ummmm.... ok. Clean sheet of paper. Anyone remember these words??? Ya know where I'm goin' with this? END.

03-18-2008, 02:52 AM	#23
LS9CamaroSS Drives: Cavalier RS Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Jordan, NY Posts: 569	8. If you are still driving by the time we run out of oil I feel sorry for the people who will have to live with you on the road seeing as I'm only 20 i hope to be driving in 40-50 years... i understand now the shortened charger platform is something i hadn't thought of before now and I'm sorry i missed the Tesla's acceleration by.3 of a sec i knew it was somewhere in there i've been crucified on here so i guess i'll go away with my tale between my legs... i didn't fully understand the CAFE regulations before now so thank you. But a little more respect would have been nice and sure does go a long way........

03-18-2008, 10:42 AM	#26
Silverado GM Guy For Life Drives: 2010 GMC Yukon XL Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 971 View My Garage	I don't really want to rehash the whole "Challenger is a re-dressed Charger thing", so I won't....I'll just make a couple points here. Tesla...fantastic concept, decent excution of that concept....couple problems....not a $75K car, it's over $100K. Not within the reach of the "normal" buyer. Another problem...it's a 2 seater....not practical enough for most people....another problem...if you are using that other seat for a passenger, your "cargo space" is now too small to carry your briefcase to work....another problem....limited production...meaning higher prices, too few of them to really matter, etc....and finally, $100K for a car that you will have to replace the transmission in at about 5K miles? Come on...this car is still in the development...but, by all means, keep it going...serious potential. Someone asked about any vehicles in recent memory that had "shorter" concept-to-production times....the Viper...18 months, the Prowler...also 18 months...the New Beetle was somewhere in the 20 month category...there are others, but you get the point. It can be done. I'm not arguing for or against the time it's taken for the Camaro (it is what it is), I'm just saying it can be done. CAFE....what people don't take into account when they start panicking about the standards....it does count across the manufacutuer's line....so for every Camaro sold that gets 25-30mpg, you need to sell one Aveo that gets 40-45mpg. For every Hybrid Tahoe that gets 20-25mpg, you need to sell one Saturn Vue hybrid that gets 45-50mpg...they are basically doing that today...it won't be as big a leap as people think. (Don't get me wrong...the government should stay the hell out of it and let the market drive the products...if people want better gas mileage, that's what the people will buy and that's what the manufacturers will produce...the government shouldn't have any say in it either way.) The point is, it isn't that far off...hybrids help raise the average, so keeping a performance car or a large SUV in the lineup doesn't hurt them as much as people worry about. They will be there. Electric cars shouldn't count towards that, in my opinion. Not using gasoline doesn't mean you get 100's of miles per gallon...you get 0 miles per gallon, you just don't use any gallons. As for the oil running out....there is no one here on the message boards that will be around when the oil actually runs out...in fact, your kids won't be around. There is still so much oil, in our country alone, that there will be oil for a long time to come (if it weren't for the damn tree-hugging liberals, we'd be drilling it right now and the price of gas would still be under $2/gallon, but they can't keep their "green" noses out of it, which means the government has to get involved and we all know when the government gets involved it gets f&#$ed up (see the CAFE comments)). Does that mean we should wait to develop alternatives? No. What it means is that people need to stop wasting time and energy panicking about the oil and complaining about those using it and put the time and energy towards positive develoment of new energies/technologies. Those people complaining that GM and Ford are just making too many "big trucks and SUV's" or "why would anyone make/buy a V-8", etc....they are just part of the problem and not part of the solution. Ford and Chrysler have some problems. Problems that may not let them keep going too much longer. That might not be a bad thing. But, GM has been putting out quality products for awhile now. By doing that, pushing the new technologies, and generally (no pun intended) doing things the right way, GM will be in a better position to stick around. And that definitely isn't a bad thing.

03-18-2008, 11:07 AM	#28
smike07 Drives: 1998 convertible Camaro RS Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 220	GM will not suffer from the delay of the Camaro. Just from this forum alone, that's 2150 new Camaros sold. That's not to mention everyone who looks at this site as reliable information, those who fell in love with it when they saw Transformers, and those who have no idea the Camaro will be out in March of '09. GM will do fine. It's likely they won't be able to pump out enough to meet the supply and demand the first year of production. I know I'll probably have to wait. Think about it, the dealerships already have waiting lists. They have no idea how many they'll each get as of now, so the lists will keep growing until they get the Camaros to satisfy their customers. Then, they'll have the average Joe who walks in to get one right before another average Jan, and Jan decides she wants to offer a little more for the car. Then a bidding war happens because it's the only available one on the lot, (or any lot in a 200 mile radius) and so on, and so on... If GM can pump out about 150,000 within the first year of production, we MIGHT be alright. I'm not sure that's enough. This is a hot @ss car!