E85 Compatibility

[Nickdago]

Originally Posted by theholycow

You're not straining the supply when you had far too much supply before. The price of corn hasn't gone up much, and its effect on general food prices is just not much to begin with. All the energy that goes into processing, producing, and distributing food, OTOH, has gotten way more expensive.

Actually we are straining the corn crop and you are wrong if you think it is not effecting prices. Corn is used in multiple products such as corn syrup which is used in almost everything as a sweetner, it is in our cereals and a million other items. Last time I looked there were over 45 countries with riots due to the high cost of corn products in their countries.

[Nickdago]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

I wish we had more E85. E85 is cheaper than ordinary gas, and getting enough of it would make demand for gas go down, lowering the price of ordinary gas at the same time. I wish we could synthesize it without using so much corn.

Actually right know I can buy ethanol for about $2.79 gal, only problem is the gas mileage drops from about 16-17 miles a gallon down to 11, so even though it is cheaper I really only save about 8-10 bucks every 300 miles.

[Captain Awesome]

There was a thing on the news tonight about turning coal into gasoline. Apparently other countries do this and gas cost to them is about $12.00 a barrel to make. I don't know what it costs to make gas from crude, but even with a large markup I don't think it's cheaper than $12 a barrel.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Nickdago

Actually we are straining the corn crop and you are wrong if you think it is not effecting prices. Corn is used in multiple products such as corn syrup which is used in almost everything as a sweetner, it is in our cereals and a million other items. Last time I looked there were over 45 countries with riots due to the high cost of corn products in their countries.

And Mexican farmers protested the importing of cheap corn grown in Canada and the US.

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

There was a thing on the news tonight about turning coal into gasoline. Apparently other countries do this and gas cost to them is about $12.00 a barrel to make. I don't know what it costs to make gas from crude, but even with a large markup I don't think it's cheaper than $12 a barrel.

The Germans were doing that as far back as WWII, half the fuel used by their airforce was derived from coal.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Myka

lol. It has gotten a bit off topic but since nobody here knows the answer to the original question, I guess it's a pretty good discussion. Dragoneye, you don't know, do you?? lol...

Not for sure. All I know, is that it would be advantageous to make the car a flexfuel vehicle, especially one in a "dying" market (psh)...and when we sent our input to the disciples in May, E85 capability was on the list.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by Nickdago

Actually we are straining the corn crop and you are wrong if you think it is not effecting prices.

What part of "farmers aren't getting much more money for their corn" don't you understand? What part of "farmers aren't making more profit, which is what they'd do if price went up due to demand, because they're spending all that money on petroleum-based fertilizer, energy for their operation, and fuel for their equipment" don't you understand? The small amount of increase in price that the farmers are getting is not as much as their increase in energy costs to make it. Demand hasn't increased price, cost has increased price.

Corn is used in multiple products such as corn syrup which is used in almost everything as a sweetner, it is in our cereals and a million other items. Last time I looked there were over 45 countries with riots due to the high cost of corn products in their countries.

"Partially hydrogenated corn syrup", yes, I'm familiar with it. It's in the ingredients list of almost every sweet food and non-diet soda in the US. However, it's just not a big enough part, and the price of corn has not risen enough, to have a big effect on the packaged food product price. Now, the energy that goes into shipping the corn to the processing plant, processing the corn into partially hydrogenated corn syrup, shipping the other ingredients' materials, the energy required for making the other ingredients, the energy required to ship all the processed ingredients, the energy required to make food out of those processed ingredients, the energy required to pack it, the energy required to ship it, and the energy required to store it...that adds up pretty quick.

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

There was a thing on the news tonight about turning coal into gasoline. Apparently other countries do this and gas cost to them is about $12.00 a barrel to make. I don't know what it costs to make gas from crude, but even with a large markup I don't think it's cheaper than $12 a barrel.

Yup, old technology, kept down possibly by cost to develop and possibly by collusive behavior in the energy industry. Also, a new method has been discovered to make gasoline from wood scraps and tires:
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3846

[Blizzard]

You can make fuel out of anything organic, it is just a matter of how much and cost in energey put in to energy resulted.

Now back to the Topic here.

I would place money that there will be a flex-fuel Camaro the first year, let me restate that, first model year as in when the vert comes out. The main differance here is just, fuel tank, lines, a sensor, and computer program.

I also have a feeling that the new Gen V engines will be the start of bringing back higher compression engines to better use E85 and other alcohol fuels.

And with all of this is why I love old cars and engines with no computer controls. When the time comes that all gas stations will be required to sell E85, my truck (with a compression already of 13:1) will require just a few turns of a screw driver and will run great on E85.

[chevydude26]

does e85 actually make the mpg's better??? and is it cheaper those are the only two things the actual consumers care about

the environment green argument is a load of baloney

[Mr. Wyndham]

There is some truth to the environmental argument...trouble is, it's gotten blown out of proportion.

E85 drops mileage approxomately 35%. But it is also cheaper...so there's a balance that needs to be looked at. In most cases, it's worth it.
:seesaw:

[chevydude26]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

There is some truth to the environmental argument...trouble is, it's gotten blown out of proportion.

E85 drops mileage approxomately 35%. But it is also cheaper...so there's a balance that needs to be looked at. In most cases, it's worth it.
:seesaw:

so you get less mpg with e85...

ok gm don't waste money on this...its a losing effort

this global warming stuff is going be looked at like y2k in short time...invest in fuel cells instead

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by Blizzard

The main differance here is just, fuel tank, lines, a sensor, and computer program.

What has to be different about the tank?

Also, you forgot compression ratio, if you want to be efficient with it.

Originally Posted by chevydude26

so you get less mpg with e85...

Yes, in vehicles that are not optimized for it (pretty much every vehicle on the road). Maybe not in vehicles that are.

[GTAHVIT]

Whoa hold them horses.

E85 causes a reduction of 35% But it is proven that a E35 (in some cars) can increase MPG by 35% So, it has a lot to do with the ratio of ethanol. The problem is the best ratio is different for different engines.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by chevydude26

so you get less mpg with e85...

ok gm don't waste money on this...its a losing effort

No, it's not. It's a quickly-applicable idea that can help offset our gasoline usage. Not replace it by any means, but it can make a sizeable dent.

Like I said, it's worth it despite the mileage decreases. Because the price differences are still great enough to merit a $$ savings when you use E85.

And yet, there's still another angle to this. Flex fuel vehicles can run on any blend of Ethanol and gasoline up to 85% ethanol...and recent tests have shown that certain mixtures (something like ~E30) will actually yeild better mileage than pure gasoline. So, in the next few years, there will be a significant increase in ethanol production levels (from cellulosic ethanol plant startups). You think it would be a good idea for GM to abandon a minor ~$200 modification to vehicles, only to risk getting caught with their pants down if ethanol becomes a major player?

Besides, widespread use of fuel cells is still one to two decades out...very risky focusing on and investing a ton of capital into something that "unstable" (no pun intended ).

In any event, I think GM above all the other companies is in the best place to pull ahead in the alternative fuels 'segment'. They've got their fingers in everything; deisel, ethanol, HCCI, Hybrids, All electric drive, Hydrogen....if any one of these takes off, GM has some footing to run with it.


EDIT: oops. my bad, gtahvit.....dumb long messages and the time it takes to write them.....

[GTAHVIT]

It's all good, I finally beat you to the punch