Import or not?

[VaporS197]

Why do you need to take a stand? I'm not rallying for an invasion of Oshawa to take back what's ours. I'm just trying to have a civilized conversation.

[Warghost]

I'm going to input my opinion on this matter also. A Toyota is a JAPANESE auto company and therefore all Toyota's are Japanese. I don't care if it's built in America, that's just how I feel about it. The Camaro is an American car and always will be. The same rules apply.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by VaporS197

Again, I don't want to take this thread on a political discussion, so I'll stop there. But am I over-analyzing this?

Just a tad...:(
I guess it's 'time' I say my piece.


This:

Originally Posted by Pencil.Fight

I think the things that make a car "American" have a lot more to do with things as simple as location.

Pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject.

You say you're Itallian, Irish, and Scottish plus more. Do you consider yourself American? It's the same deal with Camaro.

I have learned to accept that there is no longer a purely American, or Japanese, or German, or whatever car anymore (technically speaking). The World has become a global marketplace. So to survive, you must take advantage of the "if you can't beat them, join them" strategy: You must take part. That's what GM(specifically) is doing on all of it's cars.

The Camaro will ride on GM's Global RWD Architecture (also known as Zeta). Zeta will underpin many cars as a core suspension. But each different model will be tailored specifically to it's needs. Think of it this way. Zeta IS the family tie the Camaro has to GM, and it's sibling cars, but it's still a Camaro. totally different from anything else that will use Zeta. The Commodore, a Holden sedan, will be tuned to operate a specific way in Australia; the G8 will be tuned and tweaked to operate in North America. Which brings me to my next point, and Pencil.Fight's quote:

Call me stupid, and tell me that I'm looking to deeply into this , but I truly believe that the Spirit of the car helps to distinguish what a car's 'nationality' is. Would you ever, in a million years, think of the Camaro as Japanese, or Australian, or European? No. Anything that GM is responsible for making, is inherently American. No 'if's', 'and's', or 'but's' about it:

The Camaro is an American Car.

Then, you asked why the Camaro's coming back.

Some may argue that it's because GM wants a piece of this "retro" pie. I disagree completely. We've wanted this car back since it was ended in 2002, and GM knew that.

A little history: The reason for the 4thgen's downfall was FAR beyond simple sales numbers. Certain executives didn't deem the Camaro a necesary car for it's lineup. and the program was actually axed in 1998. Scott Settlmire, and others did all they could to keep it alive untill 2002. When the Car needed a redesign, and just no funds to allow it.

And, as I understand it, there were contract issues that pretty much prevented anybody from thining about a new Camaro once the program ended untill the expiration of said contract in 2006. And...when did we finally see the concept car?

Now it's coming back. Some say too late, the retro thing is done. Well, one: the demand for th eoverpriced Challenger is a testament that that's not true.
Second: retro was never the plan for this car anyways, was it?

So, why is it coming back? Because it finally can. There's nothing holding it back anymore. No execs, no contracts, nothing. And what's it's place? A bada$$ Chevrolet sport coupe


Long-winded, I'm sorry - but...does it help any?

[Design1stCode2nd]

Hate to burst a bubble but what defines a American, German, Japanese.. etc car? Is it the percentage of parts for a specific country and or where it’s screwed together? If so then the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord should rank up pretty high as American cars.

As the one big 3 struggle for survival (it’s not clear at this point that any of them won’t file chap. 11. Ford most of all) they need to find ways to reduce costs of manufacture along with building compelling cars across their line-up that people want to buy. GM and others will build the cars with the parts that are most profitable in the most profitable place they can. It’s a business, so don’t be surprised when the Camaro is built in AUS with parts from 10 different countries including China. Its called a global economy.

[VaporS197]

Hey, I don't mind long-windedness at all. Very nicely put, by the way. I agree with you mostly about the "spirit" of a car. And maybe this is why the car was axed over here after three years, but the GTO...again. That was an Australian car, no two ways about it. I was afraid the Camaro was an Australian rolling-chassis - born and bred in another country - with a beautifully new body, and not something conceived in America. Does that make sense?

And does that make me an A-hole for feeling this way about it? I don't think so...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Design1stCode2nd

Hate to burst a bubble but what defines a American, German, Japanese.. etc car? Is it the percentage of parts for a specific country and or where it’s screwed together? If so then the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord should rank up pretty high as American cars.

It's the company's origin that defines nationality in the end...and nothing with that skewed "T" on it will ever be American in my book...

Originally Posted by Design1stCode2nd

As the one big 3 struggle for survival (it’s not clear at this point that any of them won’t file chap. 11. Ford most of all) they need to find ways to reduce costs of manufacture along with building compelling cars across their line-up that people want to buy. GM and others will build the cars with the parts that are most profitable in the most profitable place they can. It’s a business, so don’t be surprised when the Camaro is built in AUS with parts from 10 different countries including China. Its called a global economy.

The new UAW contract is designed to help prevent that...if you are speaking about outsourcing.

Originally Posted by VaporS197

Hey, I don't mind long-windedness at all. Very nicely put, by the way. I agree with you mostly about the "spirit" of a car. And maybe this is why the car was axed over here after three years, but the GTO...again. That was an Australian car, no two ways about it. I was afraid the Camaro was an Australian rolling-chassis - born and bred in another country - with a beautifully new body, and not something conceived in America. Does that make sense?

And does that make me an A-hole for feeling this way about it? I don't think so...

The GTO was, generally, an imported Aussie car. The Camaro is different, completely. So no worries?

and more history The GTO was overpriced, had an aged body design (that rounded look), and wasn't sold in the right places for most effect. It was a disaster, and GM learned from that. All that from Bob Lutz.

[35th02ss]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

It's the company's origin that defines nationality in the end...and nothing with that skewed "T" on it will ever be American in my book...

Correct you are.........Just because toyota builds a car here in the states does not mean it's an american car. Where is the Global headquarters located? Which country does the money go to?

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by VaporS197

Why do you need to take a stand? I'm not rallying for an invasion of Oshawa to take back what's ours. I'm just trying to have a civilized conversation.

I never accused you of such, and I never thought you would. I just wanted to put it out there that as a Canadian, I feel that this is your car, not ours and not the Aussies.

The spirit of the car was mentioned too, and nobody can say that the Camaro does not embody the spirit of Camaros past. Bold styling and an awesome powerplant to back it up, with nice handling too. Thats what a Camaro is, and thats what we are going to get.

[Design1stCode2nd]

So then was Chrysler a German company up until last year and is it now a Canadian company? If Ford files Chap 11 (distinct possibility) and drops their US manufacturing while they restructure and set their Office in Ford of Europe are they then a European car company?

I understand the point of follow where the money goes to see what nationality the car has but that is going to become grayer and grayer as time goes on. When GM, Chrysler and Ford start reselling Chinese cars in 5-10 years here in the US will these be American cars because the profits go to a US based company?

GM, Ford and Chrysler are in a real tough spot right now. Ford most of all. Back in the 50’s GM had a 52% market share in the US and a dealer network to support it. Now they are at 26% with the same network and they can’t afford to shrink it due to US franchise laws. They also have 8 brands which constantly compete with each other for sales and few have any specific audience or defined niche. GM in the past year has sold Allison transmission, sold their large trucks to international, sold proving grounds, and many more things I can’t remember. Why? They need cash. The new UAW contract helps, it helps a lot but it’s still uncertain if it’s going to be enough. Keep in mind GM bonds sell at below junk bond status and Ford has about two years to turn it around before bankers come in and sell off the bits. I give Cerberus 10 months before Chrysler is parted out to Magna, the Indians or the Chinese.

Why does a Cobalt not measure up to a Civic or Mazda 3? Why is it only now that the Malibu is reaching parity with the Camry and Accord let alone surpassing them?

Why was the Solstice (one of the most beautiful cars on the road today at any price IMO) not benchmarked against the MX5 to have a power top and trunk space on par or better?

GM has proven with the new CTS, Enclave, Malibu and hopefully G8 and Camaro that they can compete on the world market. This must be done across the board if they want to be a leader again and win back all of those they lost in the 70’s-90’s to imports/transplants.

[VaporS197]

No question this new version embodies everything about the Camaro. Maybe that's one thing that I thought this country was losing, and that was its identity... Maybe I don't even know what I'm talking about...

But you are right. It is a Camaro, and probably the most badass one yet available. I know I'm def looking forward to seeing it...

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by VaporS197

I was distinctively worried that GM was going the route of Chrysler and just outsourcing their vehicles. That would offend me. I can definitely see how this could get out of control, but I was far from trying to start an argument.

you'll have to excuse me if this is already said, since I didn't read all three pages before I decided to quote this one particular post.

GM is not trying to outsource its cars or its employees... there are cars that are made by Daewoo (Chevy Aveo) and there are cars that are made by Holden (2004-2006 Pontiac GTO, all Vauxhall VX-Rs, etc.) and there are cars that are made by GM's North American domestic names (i.e., the 4th gen Camaros were shipped globally and built by Chevrolet in the Ste. Therese plant in Canada)... but GM is an American car company... and while Holden, Vauxhall, Opel and Saab are companies that are, by their nameplate, foreign cars, they are all produced by the same General Motors that is based in Detroit, MI, area.

there are cars that are North American domestic, Japanese domestic, European domestic, etc.... and those cars are really only available in certain areas of the world... IMO, the Camaro is an American name and always will be... it was born in the USA, was produced in the USA for years and only since the 4th gen (were there any Canadian produced 2nd or 3rd gens? hmmmm) has it been produced in Canada... to me, that's an American car... if it were a rehashing of the Monaro (like the GTO was), I might have a little gripe... but as it stands right now, they are going to be on the same platform and that's it... to say that the Camaro is less American than it has been in the past would be akin to saying that the last generation of Thunderbird was less American because it shared the same LS platform as the Jaguars... and I believe we can both agree that the last Thunderbird was a very American car.


cliff's notes: Camaro is an American nameplate, no matter where it is developed... GM is an American company, no matter what car companies it owns... I dont know if there were any Camaros produced outside of the USA before the 4th gen

[VaporS197]

Yeah, that makes sense to me, SilverTurtle

[VaporS197]

Originally Posted by Design1stCode2nd

So then was Chrysler a German company up until last year and is it now a Canadian company? If Ford files Chap 11 (distinct possibility) and drops their US manufacturing while they restructure and set their Office in Ford of Europe are they then a European car company?

I understand the point of follow where the money goes to see what nationality the car has but that is going to become grayer and grayer as time goes on. When GM, Chrysler and Ford start reselling Chinese cars in 5-10 years here in the US will these be American cars because the profits go to a US based company?

GM, Ford and Chrysler are in a real tough spot right now. Ford most of all. Back in the 50’s GM had a 52% market share in the US and a dealer network to support it. Now they are at 26% with the same network and they can’t afford to shrink it due to US franchise laws. They also have 8 brands which constantly compete with each other for sales and few have any specific audience or defined niche. GM in the past year has sold Allison transmission, sold their large trucks to international, sold proving grounds, and many more things I can’t remember. Why? They need cash. The new UAW contract helps, it helps a lot but it’s still uncertain if it’s going to be enough. Keep in mind GM bonds sell at below junk bond status and Ford has about two years to turn it around before bankers come in and sell off the bits. I give Cerberus 10 months before Chrysler is parted out to Magna, the Indians or the Chinese.

Why does a Cobalt not measure up to a Civic or Mazda 3? Why is it only now that the Malibu is reaching parity with the Camry and Accord let alone surpassing them?

Why was the Solstice (one of the most beautiful cars on the road today at any price IMO) not benchmarked against the MX5 to have a power top and trunk space on par or better?

GM has proven with the new CTS, Enclave, Malibu and hopefully G8 and Camaro that they can compete on the world market. This must be done across the board if they want to be a leader again and win back all of those they lost in the 70’s-90’s to imports/transplants.

I think you pretty much summed up everything I was thinking, my friend, without me actually having the knowledge or facts to prove my point. So thank you

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Design1stCode2nd

So then was Chrysler a German company up until last year and is it now a Canadian company? If Ford files Chap 11 (distinct possibility) and drops their US manufacturing while they restructure and set their Office in Ford of Europe are they then a European car company?I was understanding that Cerebus(Chryslers new parent company) was American. I may have been mistaken. But either way; I'
ve always seen them as an American company with different parent companies.

I understand the point of follow where the money goes to see what nationality the car has but that is going to become grayer and grayer as time goes on. When GM, Chrysler and Ford start reselling Chinese cars in 5-10 years here in the US will these be American cars because the profits go to a US based company?Will GM have designed the cars? Because if GM's designing cars for China, and then sell them here, then they're not Chinese cars, are they? I highly doubt they're gonna be buying cars from a Chinese OEM, just to turn around and resell them here...let the Chinese sell them themselves.

GM, Ford and Chrysler are in a real tough spot right now. Ford most of all. Back in the 50’s GM had a 52% market share in the US and a dealer network to support it. Now they are at 26% with the same network and they can’t afford to shrink it due to US franchise laws. They also have 8 brands which constantly compete with each other for sales and few have any specific audience or defined niche. GM in the past year has sold Allison transmission, sold their large trucks to international, sold proving grounds, and many more things I can’t remember. Why? They need cash. The new UAW contract helps, it helps a lot but it’s still uncertain if it’s going to be enough. Keep in mind GM bonds sell at below junk bond status and Ford has about two years to turn it around before bankers come in and sell off the bits. I give Cerberus 10 months before Chrysler is parted out to Magna, the Indians or the Chinese.The sales of Allison, and the mid-size truck segment were sold to consolidate the Company so that they can focus on what matters to them in terms of 'expertise', and profits: passenger cars and trucks. And for a bit of quick cash no doubt...I would also disagree with what you said about the brands.

Why does a Cobalt not measure up to a Civic or Mazda 3? Why is it only now that the Malibu is reaching parity with the Camry and Accord let alone surpassing them?Can't comment on the Cobalt. I own one, and would be bias. But as for the Malibu...what did you expect? We all know their cars haven't been the greatest for a while, but we're in the middle of that change. It isn't started or finished. I guess that could also apply to the Cobalt, now that I think about it - Watch the next gen; I'm 100% positive it will blow it's competitors out of the water.

Why was the Solstice (one of the most beautiful cars on the road today at any price IMO) not benchmarked against the MX5 to have a power top and trunk space on par or better? ()

GM has proven with the new CTS, Enclave, Malibu and hopefully G8 and Camaro that they can compete on the world market. This must be done across the board if they want to be a leader again and win back all of those they lost in the 70’s-90’s to imports/transplants.

read my comment about the Malibu..."across the board": don't worry - it's not over.