Nitrous, Methanol, continuous cooling

[jeff4946]

Originally Posted by mpiper

So, if I understand this right, we would have a Freon filled intercooler under the airbox so as air is pulled up into the air filter, it is cooled? Or are we cutting out a section of the air tube and inserting the intercooler there? Or did I get this bass ackwards?

Would you estimate this gain using the formula of X degrees = Y hp change? So dropping from 110 to say 70 would be a drop of 40 degrees, so 16 - 20 hp? Or am I way off base?

I just dont understand why you would spend this amount of time, energy, money for such a small gain. I was always nervous of nitrous, but now I would throw a small system on any car without any hesitation. If it is done right, which is not tough to do, a universal safe shot, with a WOT switch is cheap, compared to adding intercoolers and such. The only problem I can see, is the addiction to that power, and the fact, that it doesn't take much to throw in a couple bigger jets, and produce more power. That is where the money starts to add up. IMO, meth injection on a stock, or near stock engine, is wasting money and time. There is plenty of easier power to be had.

[mpiper]

Skip, thanks for the clarification. That helps

Jeff, this isn't about the size of the gain. It's about maintaining the winter level of performance in 105* heat. Down the road, once I'm closer to the end of the factory warranty I plan to drop in a supercharger (they should finally be out by then. I think SC2150 said he's looking at starting in 90 days or so. And if he starts, he'll deliver.) So, I don't want to go too wild right now. Just something that allows me to run consistently, regardless of the outside temps. given the cost of CAI, headers or exhaust systems, $600 to $800 is not unreasonable for a 20+ hp gain.It's just that this is not the usual route people take.

Remember, my priority is this: Get in, start the car, and drive it on a daily basis. No extra procedures every time I want to run, just get in, start up, and drive. So a nitrous system requires a remote bottle valve on top of any kit. As far as the costs, here's what I've found by surfing the web, along with what info is related to this goal.
A) Methanol Injection - 20-30 HP, $400 for parts, untested on V6 but works on C6 Vette
B) Nitrous w/ remote - 50 HP, $750 for parts, proven. Requires refills
B) Superchiller - 20+ HP(?), $800 for parts, proven for more in supercharger applications

So, at this point, we have Methanol for the lowest price, but it's unproven and requires $6 every few months to refill. Then Nitrous, which requires refills and in not legal on the street except in "theoretical" discussions in most of the country. And Lastly we have a fully street legal method that never requires refills, but is fairly pricey for a NA car.

All three can be converted for use with a SC down the road, so it's not a waste to install now, even if you'll be upgrading in the future.

Again, the prices I quoted above are not anything but rough estimates from looking around at various web sites. Actual costs may be more or less depending on exact components and any discounts, taxes, etc.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

A couple of things. The reason there is a significant gain from meth/H2O inject on turbo cars is they are losing significant power from the extra heat caused by compressing the air (and meth adds some fuel with higher octane). The same is true for S/C cars using the superchiller (roots style SC have even a bigger issue). If you have a FI car and you are seeing 105* IATs after the innercoolder you aren't expecting huge increases by adding meth/H20 as a coolant, you are just playing it safe with the higher octane. That is even with the compressed (more 02/L we are getting). I really don't think you will see comparable gains (e.g. 20 HP) by cooling uncompressed air by 40*. The O2 density just isn't increased enough.

Secondly, if your longterm goal is to go with a S/C, then think about what type you want. If it is roots, then experimenting with the superchiller now may be fun and have some benefits and then won't be a waste of money when you do your "big" mod. If you are going centri, then meth/H2O is still an option or going the IC/HE route like SC2150 was explaining above. It is more expensive than meth/H2O to begin with, but has less recurring cost and not affected by supply (we can't get it here in the winter so we have to store it ourselves). I'm not going to tell you what to do because I wouldn't know myself...I'm just say think it through, including your long-term goals.

Originally Posted by mpiper

Skip, thanks for the clarification. That helps

Jeff, this isn't about the size of the gain. It's about maintaining the winter level of performance in 105* heat. Down the road, once I'm closer to the end of the factory warranty I plan to drop in a supercharger (they should finally be out by then. I think SC2150 said he's looking at starting in 90 days or so. And if he starts, he'll deliver.) So, I don't want to go too wild right now. Just something that allows me to run consistently, regardless of the outside temps. given the cost of CAI, headers or exhaust systems, $600 to $800 is not unreasonable for a 20+ hp gain.It's just that this is not the usual route people take.

Remember, my priority is this: Get in, start the car, and drive it on a daily basis. No extra procedures every time I want to run, just get in, start up, and drive. So a nitrous system requires a remote bottle valve on top of any kit. As far as the costs, here's what I've found by surfing the web, along with what info is related to this goal.
A) Methanol Injection - 20-30 HP, $400 for parts, untested on V6 but works on C6 Vette
B) Nitrous w/ remote - 50 HP, $750 for parts, proven. Requires refills
B) Superchiller - 20+ HP(?), $800 for parts, proven for more in supercharger applications

So, at this point, we have Methanol for the lowest price, but it's unproven and requires $6 every few months to refill. Then Nitrous, which requires refills and in not legal on the street except in "theoretical" discussions in most of the country. And Lastly we have a fully street legal method that never requires refills, but is fairly pricey for a NA car.

All three can be converted for use with a SC down the road, so it's not a waste to install now, even if you'll be upgrading in the future.

Again, the prices I quoted above are not anything but rough estimates from looking around at various web sites. Actual costs may be more or less depending on exact components and any discounts, taxes, etc.

[BTetrick59]

If you what cooler air temp, stop at 7-11 and put a bag of ice in the air box.
or if you what true HP Nitromethane is the best way with a lower compression motor
Meth, needs compression to make more HP

[Jason7]

Jfyi, a TC or SC is not 100% power a 100% of the time. During most driving conditions your remain out of boost and in vacume.... Meaning you aren't forcing anything anywhere...

Jason

[mpiper]

Quick question, while waiting for Graham to get back with a starter kit that might fit this situation.

This entire time, we've been saying "gain of XX hp." In reality, what I'm actually saying is "recovered XX lost hp." I'm talking about a kit that keeps the engine at 312 regardless of AIT. In February, my AIT was around 80 in traffic, dropping below 70 while driving. Currently, my AIT starts at 100 and can climb up to 120 very quickly. Not even sure what it is in stop and go traffic in the afternoons, never took measurements.

So my question is this: Have we all be talking about "regaining" 15-50 hp with the various methods, or have we accidentally dropped into talking about potential gains on top of 312?

Of course, nitrous would be a constant gain, so in the summer I regain with a small bonus, and in the winter, it's all gravy.

Jason7, I just learned something new. I thought Turbos went from vacuum to boost, but thought SC always ran boost, just more as RPM climbs. Thanks for the info! So if I'm under, say 2,500 rpm I'm still getting roughly the same mileage as a non-SC car? or does the mechanical drag really take a toll on the MPG?

[Graham@N]

I can do a system with the above mentioned parts for a touch over 800$

The thing about is you will be able to adjust the nitrous system as well.

Set it for as low as 35hp merely to "recover" as you put it from extreme weather conditions, to 75hp to make the drive to work a little more entertaining.

With shot sizes this small and length you will use it, I would not doubt 20+ hit's out of a 10lb bottle.

This is as simple as

1) Switch to arm system
2) Switch to open bottle
3) Push the go pedal

[mpiper]

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

A couple of things. The reason there is a significant gain from meth/H2O inject on turbo cars is they are losing significant power from the extra heat caused by compressing the air (and meth adds some fuel with higher octane). The same is true for S/C cars using the superchiller (roots style SC have even a bigger issue). If you have a FI car and you are seeing 105* IATs after the innercoolder you aren't expecting huge increases by adding meth/H20 as a coolant, you are just playing it safe with the higher octane. That is even with the compressed (more 02/L we are getting). I really don't think you will see comparable gains (e.g. 20 HP) by cooling uncompressed air by 40*. The O2 density just isn't increased enough.

Secondly, if your longterm goal is to go with a S/C, then think about what type you want. If it is roots, then experimenting with the superchiller now may be fun and have some benefits and then won't be a waste of money when you do your "big" mod. If you are going centri, then meth/H2O is still an option or going the IC/HE route like SC2150 was explaining above. It is more expensive than meth/H2O to begin with, but has less recurring cost and not affected by supply (we can't get it here in the winter so we have to store it ourselves). I'm not going to tell you what to do because I wouldn't know myself...I'm just say think it through, including your long-term goals.

That's a good point. I only have 1 positive claim of gaining HP on a NA engine. Spinmonster on the corvette forum did it with a vette and got good gains. But he's the only one, and that's not an LLT V6. Everyone else says it's a no go.

Of course, my goal was originally just to regain the lost HP in my power curve due to the temps going from 60* ambient to 105* ambient. So if this were to simply drop the ambient air being fed into the engine from 105 to 60, would it regain the lost power and responsiveness? No "Max Gain" question here, just wondering if 60* during winter = 60* during summer. There's a kit out there that would do the temp drop for around $400. So when I was saying max gain of maybe 20, I was saying Summer HP of 289 being brought back up to 309. In the winter, I was never thinking this would be anything. But we have 90+ temps from May through September, so regaining my winter level of performance for 5 months of the year seemed a reasonable goal.

From that perspective, does it seem feasible, or still a no go??

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by mpiper

That's a good point. I only have 1 positive claim of gaining HP on a NA engine. Spinmonster on the corvette forum did it with a vette and got good gains. But he's the only one, and that's not an LLT V6. Everyone else says it's a no go.

Of course, my goal was originally just to regain the lost HP in my power curve due to the temps going from 60* ambient to 105* ambient. So if this were to simply drop the ambient air being fed into the engine from 105 to 60, would it regain the lost power and responsiveness? No "Max Gain" question here, just wondering if 60* during winter = 60* during summer. There's a kit out there that would do the temp drop for around $400. So when I was saying max gain of maybe 20, I was saying Summer HP of 289 being brought back up to 309. In the winter, I was never thinking this would be anything. But we have 90+ temps from May through September, so regaining my winter level of performance for 5 months of the year seemed a reasonable goal.

From that perspective, does it seem feasible, or still a no go??

I see your point. However, how will the ECU know about the meth/H2O without a tune. The IAT sensor is on the intake tube, but you will spray right before the throttle body or directly into the manifold. You will have to run a tune to adjust for the amount you are spraying.

[mpiper]

Graham, your post came in while I was typing. I'll be PM ing you about that. As far as the thread, can you describe what parts are involved in that setup for the people that have joined the thread while munching popcorn

[mpiper]

GGG, I were to do it, i would relocate the iat sensor to after the injector, so out reads the New temp. I wanted a kit for that, but so far no one has done one.

As far as tune, I'm buying one. Just prioritizing costs on what I do first, so it'll happen between now and January.

[Graham@N]

Originally Posted by mpiper

Graham, your post came in while I was typing. I'll be PM ing you about that. As far as the thread, can you describe what parts are involved in that setup for the people that have joined the thread while munching popcorn

Sure can:



Your Basic Dry system.

http://www.nitrousoutlet.com/catalog...4&product=4099

This will be used in conjunction with our ring instead of the nozzle:



http://www.nitrousoutlet.com/catalog...4&product=1214

This will be placed inside of the filter and is what will spray the nitrous into the air stream.



http://www.nitrousoutlet.com/catalog...=26&section=86

This will provide the WOT and window switch functions. Our window switch has the TPS built into it and then it also has a gear lockout feature. Nice to have all that in one box.



http://www.nitrousoutlet.com/catalog...=23&section=77

Just to make things a little easier to reach.


Here is the basic layout.

[mpiper]

Originally Posted by Graham@Nitrousoutlet

Sure can:



Your Basic Dry system.

http://www.nitrousoutlet.com/catalog...4&product=4099

This will be used in conjunction with our ring instead of the nozzle:



http://www.nitrousoutlet.com/catalog...4&product=1214

This will be placed inside of the filter and is what will spray the nitrous into the air stream.



http://www.nitrousoutlet.com/catalog...=26&section=86

This will provide the WOT and window switch functions. Our window switch has the TPS built into it and then it also has a gear lockout feature. Nice to have all that in one box.



http://www.nitrousoutlet.com/catalog...=23&section=77

Just to make things a little easier to reach.


Here is the basic layout.

I would have thought you would have started with the kit with the ring already in it.

What makes one better for this than the other? (No experience with this, so it might be a dumb question.)

[Graham@N]

The brand X is a more budget friendly and since we do not need the flow capability of the N20 system I assumed this would be where you would like to start.