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Old 05-13-2009, 12:02 PM   #1
RPO_Z28

 
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Ordering Over Guide Number Perspective

GM gave us all guide numbers. Ours was 9 thru Q3. We decided it makes sense to order more than the guide number because we couldn't just tell customers to go stick it after number 9. All they would do is go to the next dealer who would take their order and we would be the bad guys. So, we took 15 orders for the 9 spots. Now, most of you already know we are one of the most upfront New York dealers when it comes to ordering Camaros. What does that mean? It means your order was taken chronologically and unless there is a constraint, your order will be placed (event code 2500-3000) chronologically as well. No games. Nobody "cutting" the line. No BS.

However, GM doesn't think that dealers should take more orders than their guide number. I respect their opinion but it doesn't make sense. That means, up until this point, if I stayed at 9 units (my guide number), I would have customers walking out of the showroom screaming that Bast Chevrolet, GM and Obama DON'T WANT MY BUSINESS!! I can't have that. I know that after the end of Q3, they will be building a whole bunch more of these cars. While I can't promise any of my customers a guarantee of when the car is going to arrive, what choice do I have? I am telling every one of them November-December, could be sooner or later. We just don't know. No one does. There are dealers that are telling people 2-3 months if they order now! That is absolutely ridiculous to make that promise. Then they come here and we tell them end of the year and guess who looks like the douche?

So we decided to take about another 10-15 orders after the original 15. That means we have a guide of 9 and I have approx. 30 ordrs to fill ASAP with no promise. So far, I have 7 of those 30 either delivered, placed or about to be placed. That's the best we can do with the info we have been given.

So, what's the point, you say? Be thankful you have an R6P order and hopefully your dealer is as upfront as to where he is regarding all of the other orders and guide numbers.

We are doing the best we can with what we have.

Your questions are welcome.

Sorry if this was a rant.
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Old 05-13-2009, 12:44 PM   #2
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I agree with the above, but first off the guide number was actually first called an "estimated guide number"....Why, perhaps because some dealers got or will get added allocation or extra cars. If every dealer turned down orders because they met their number...There wouldn't be much ordering going on right now.

Also keep in mind the cars made within a dealers guide number, will be built first. Cars over will be built (if we go by the book) AFTER Q3 2009. I was told to take orders over our number, they will get built, as long as our customers know they will have to wait. And we have been up front to everyone!

The disappointment will kick in when people find out their dealers said "we can order a car" vs "we have allocation left", and will be waiting at the end of the line.

I'm sure RPO gets asked "when do you think MY CAR will be built" as much as I do....Sadly, there's no easy answer. Since August, we were told the estimate guide number was for cars through September 2009. Will that change with an added shift and working Saturdays? Possibly...Hopefully!!! But we all have to wait and see.

I see the frustration of people with cars, even in the 3000's of the order process....but now all the dealerships are seeing what I'll refer to WAVE II - the walk ins, who have seen a car, seen a TV ad, or read about it for the first time. "Where's the Camaro?" "When are you getting one?" "How long will I wait if I order one?" - we answer, and then hear "WHY SO LONG????" Well, you all know the answer to that one!

Hang in there!
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Old 05-13-2009, 12:47 PM   #3
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I understand your position. Nice to see that you guys are really honest and leave no unreasonable expectations. I know that is all I want as a customer.
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[SIZE="2"]1100- Preliminary order accepted 04/15/09
2000, Order accepted by GM ???
3000, Order accepted by production control 04/30/09
3300, Order scheduled for production???
3400, Order broadcast 06/01/09
3800, Order produced 06/10/09 Vin: 2g1fj1ej1a9116578
4200, Shipped ???
4300, Intermediate Delivery ???
4B00, Bayed ???
5000, Delivered to the dealer 06/22/09
6000, Delivered to the customer 06/23/09
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Old 05-13-2009, 12:48 PM   #4
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I don't think there is a problem with dealers taking more orders than allocations if you are honest and upfront with your customers, and let them know what your guide numbers are, where they are in line, and a realistic worse case scenario estimate of how long it takes to get it.

However, a lot of dealers have not been honest. I live in Southern California, and the demand for this car has been unreal.

One Chevy dealer near me has 45 orders for 9 allocations, but they have been honest about telling there customers about there place in line.

However, another dealership near me took over 25 orders for 10 allocations, and then told everyone that they were part of the origional 10. They also put in a few pre-orders in the system under names of dealer relatives and friends, and have submitted those cars first for build. When they arrive at the lot, they sell them for waaaayyyy over MSRP. To me, this is dishonest.

I know that chevy can only do so much to control the way the dealers submit orders. It depends on how the dealer wants to do bussiness. But, if Chevy were smart, they would have handled this differently.

Here is my two cents on what I think should have been done to make everything transparent and legal:

1.) The email that went out to people to tell them about the pre-order process back in October should have told everyone that they would receive a welcome kit (or email) and confirmation number for their order within 30 days of placing the order.

2.) The confirmation letter that went out should have contained the dealers estimated guide number, along with your place in line for the orders at that dealer.

3.) GM should have locked the system so that pre-orders that were placed were built in order for each dealer. (other than constraints) If the dealer had someone cancel out of the vehcile, they could cancel the order and everyone would move up in line, but not change the order or priority.

4.) Dealers who didn't wish to participate in the pre-order process could order lot cars for there allocation.
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Old 05-13-2009, 12:53 PM   #5
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4.) Dealers who didn't wish to participate in the pre-order process could order lot cars for there allocation.
That happened....but they had to wait until March 16th to submit unsold orders...and they really didn't lose any spot in line - that allocation was good from March through September.
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Old 05-13-2009, 01:00 PM   #6
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I understand that. But this is the reason a lot of pre-order people are getting screwed.:

A lot of dealers took several pre-orders at MSRP. Then they realized the demand, (and the fact they could easily mark up the cars) and they decided to submit orders for lot cars instead of pre-orders. Or, they called all of the pre-order customers, and tried to get them to pay more than MSRP to get the vehicle sooner. This should not have been allowed. If they decided to take pre-orders and put them in the system, they should be fulfilled in that order by GM. If the dealer didn't want to participate, then they could order whatever they wanted allocations for the lot.
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Old 05-13-2009, 02:01 PM   #7
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The dealer I originally ordered from didn't explain anything about their guide number and I placed the order only to find out that I was number 18 for 8 allocations. When I found this out I ordered from a new dealer and am now number 8 of 8 allocations. Hopefully I will get it sooner now than I would have otherwise.
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Old 05-13-2009, 02:06 PM   #8
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So, they will be built, it's just a matter of time and people need to understand that it may not be built before September 2009? Hopefully with ramp up and additional shifts, they will be able to assign more cars for dealers.
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Old 05-13-2009, 02:06 PM   #9
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I understand that. But this is the reason a lot of pre-order people are getting screwed.:

A lot of dealers took several pre-orders at MSRP. Then they realized the demand, (and the fact they could easily mark up the cars) and they decided to submit orders for lot cars instead of pre-orders. Or, they called all of the pre-order customers, and tried to get them to pay more than MSRP to get the vehicle sooner. This should not have been allowed. If they decided to take pre-orders and put them in the system, they should be fulfilled in that order by GM. If the dealer didn't want to participate, then they could order whatever they wanted allocations for the lot.
I think there may be a point here that you may be missing. From what Scotty said(and what I've read on the boards), each dealer gets a certain amount of allocations each month, and they can submit a car order to fill each of those allocations(contraints not withstanding). Now, GM doesn't know which dealer orders are for customers and which aren't, plus it's up to the dealer to choose the orders to be submitted(most though put them in a priority order and the system pulls them that way but a dealer COULD set the same priority for all orders if they wanted to).

So, lets say someone goes to their dealer and cancels their car. If the dealer doesn't put that into the system, GM has no way of knowing the customer on the order doesn't want the car, so they build it.

Same goes for a ficticious name on the order, they build it if the dealer submits it. The integrity of the dealer and their concern for their customers is what REALLY drives the process to get our cars in our hands in the order we placed them.

I personally don't see anyway for GM to control this as, unless the customer calls GM to cancel themselves, GM is at the mercy of the dealer in terms of if the car is really meant for a customer or lot car. This is how people get screwed, thrown back in line, etc. All the dealer has to do to protect themselves on a cancelled order is wait for the car to be delivered and THEN put the cancellation through. Then they are free to sell it to anyone and it's the dealers word against, well, no one as to when the cancellation happened or if there ever really WAS a customer for the order.

At least we haven't seen many dealers doing the worst thing they could. Already 2 people have had dealers try to take orders from them. One told the customer "Hey your car is here but now it's going to cost you $8K more!" The board and Fbodfather took care of them. Another had a great relationship with a dealer, so good the dealer didn't ask for a deposit. what happens? The dealer tells the customer that their order was cancelled somehow and keeps it for his own son!!!! I gotta find out what the final resolution of this one was but last I heard it wasn't good.
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Old 05-13-2009, 02:17 PM   #10
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yea if im above the dealers guide number then they should have dam right told me i wouldnt be getting the car till AFTER the 3rd quarter...here i am hoping i get it in july, dreading getting it in september...and now i see ill prolly be getting it after sept...this is the worse day of my life... :(
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Old 05-13-2009, 02:21 PM   #11
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yea if im above the dealers guide number then they should have dam right told me i wouldnt be getting the car till AFTER the 3rd quarter...here i am hoping i get it in july, dreading getting it in september...and now i see ill prolly be getting it after sept...this is the worse day of my life... :(
When I was still number 18 of 8 allocations at my previous dealer he told me it could be a year........this was repeated by my new dealer about my old dealer and now I am 8 of 8 allocations. Even being 8 of 8 in a big market I was told the car would be here by August and no later so if you are over the guide number it will be between Nov and Jan in my opinion unless they really start cranking these cars out fast. I would go find a new dealer, there are some that still may have some spots open in their original allocations. I found mine last week and if this is true then I ordered in May and will get it by August. Cant hurt for you to go look.
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Old 05-13-2009, 02:24 PM   #12
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I think there may be a point here that you may be missing. From what Scotty said(and what I've read on the boards), each dealer gets a certain amount of allocations each month, and they can submit a car order to fill each of those allocations(contraints not withstanding). Now, GM doesn't know which dealer orders are for customers and which aren't, plus it's up to the dealer to choose the orders to be submitted(most though put them in a priority order and the system pulls them that way but a dealer COULD set the same priority for all orders if they wanted to).
I understand that dealers are in charge of submitting the orders based on allocation, on a monthly or weekly basis.

I also understand that GM must fairly allocate and ship cars to each dealer, or they violate state and federal laws.

However, GM should have told dealers that if they decided to participate in the pre-order process, they would be locked into the system to build each pre-order in sequence, as there allocation became available. Dealers should not have been able to adjust the the sequence of the cars built, other than to cancel customer orders.

The total number of allocations, along with the customers place in line at that dealership should also have been provided as information to the customers.

Many dealers took a lot of orders, but they are not honoring the order they were received in. Dealers are ordering lot cars first, or prioritizing orders for the highest bidder. Yeah, people may have a pre-order with a price locked in, they may have placed a deposit on October 13th, but they are going to sit at 1100 for a long time.....
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Old 05-13-2009, 02:27 PM   #13
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I understand that dealers are in charge of submitting the orders based on allocation, on a monthly or weekly basis.

I also understand that GM must fairly allocate and ship cars to each dealer, or they violate state and federal laws.

However, GM should have told dealers that if they decided to participate in the pre-order process, they would be locked into the system to build each pre-order in sequence, as there allocation became available. Dealers should not have been able to adjust the the sequence of the cars built, other than to cancel customer orders.

The total number of allocations, along with the customers place in line at that dealership should also have been provided as information to the customers.

Many dealers took a lot of orders, but they are not honoring the order they were received in. Dealers are ordering lot cars first, or prioritizing orders for the highest bidder. Yeah, people may have a pre-order with a price locked in, they may have placed a deposit on October 13th, but they are going to sit at 1100 for a long time.....
I agree.........my first dealer was like this saying he could get the order in and later of course after you pay the guy he says yeah we have 8 for the quarter and you are 18. My new dealer however told me he had 8 allocations, 7 ordered, 5 of them produced, and one spot left if I wanted it and guaranteed August at the latest delivery. Some dealers are honest with us.
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Old 05-13-2009, 02:44 PM   #14
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Noob Question to the dealers out there.

First, I want to thank the dealers online for their input and time. Unfortunately, I ordered prior to learning what I now know because of everyone here.

My dealer has been less than sharing with info than Newman & Bast Chevy. I know my order number is NJNBJP. I have called the GM customer service number only to be told that my order is in with no TPW last week. The Camaro will be my every day car and I have to sell (way low balled on the trade-in) current my car and pay off my loan. My dealer told me 8 weeks. I do understand nobody can tell us exactly when my car will arrive. My question to the dealers is; if GM has the info, does this mean my is at least at 2000? My dealer looks at me like I have 2 heads when I talk about workbench numbers and allocations.

Thanks!
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Old 05-13-2009, 03:20 PM   #15
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First, I want to thank the dealers online for their input and time. Unfortunately, I ordered prior to learning what I now know because of everyone here.

My dealer has been less than sharing with info than Newman & Bast Chevy. I know my order number is NJNBJP. I have called the GM customer service number only to be told that my order is in with no TPW last week. The Camaro will be my every day car and I have to sell (way low balled on the trade-in) current my car and pay off my loan. My dealer told me 8 weeks. I do understand nobody can tell us exactly when my car will arrive. My question to the dealers is; if GM has the info, does this mean my is at least at 2000? My dealer looks at me like I have 2 heads when I talk about workbench numbers and allocations.

Thanks!
The reason you have no TPW is because your order is still at 1100 which is just a preliminary order.
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Old 05-13-2009, 03:25 PM   #16
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That explains a lot, RPO.

However, if the dealer doesn't say something like this to the customer:
"Look, we are allocated 8 Camaros between now and the fall of '09. All 8 of those allocations are spoken for. We can, however, still place orders above & beyond those 8. The problem with that is we have no idea when it would be built or if it would be built at all. It's a gamble. It could be as much as a year before you'd see your car. The ball is in your court. What would you like to do?"

If dealers aren't saying something just like that, then they are doing their customers a disservice.
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Old 05-13-2009, 03:43 PM   #17
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That explains a lot, RPO.

However, if the dealer doesn't say something like this to the customer:
"Look, we are allocated 8 Camaros between now and the fall of '09. All 8 of those allocations are spoken for. We can, however, still place orders above & beyond those 8. The problem with that is we have no idea when it would be built or if it would be built at all. It's a gamble. It could be as much as a year before you'd see your car. The ball is in your court. What would you like to do?"

If dealers aren't saying something just like that, then they are doing their customers a disservice.
We have had that conversation. However, we have plenty of knuckleheads that walk out with the old "That's why GM is failing because..." remark. Then they walk into the next dealer down the road where the salesperson doesn't know s**t and says, "Sure, we're getting plenty in only 6-8 weeks", and then we look like tools.

It sucks but this is what we deal with.
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Old 05-13-2009, 03:44 PM   #18
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So, you giving GMS yet?
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Old 05-13-2009, 03:46 PM   #19
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We barely make squat selling at MSRP so we are not doing GMS, GSU, etc. at this time.
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Old 05-13-2009, 05:22 PM   #20
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We have had that conversation. However, we have plenty of knuckleheads that walk out with the old "That's why GM is failing because..." remark. Then they walk into the next dealer down the road where the salesperson doesn't know s**t and says, "Sure, we're getting plenty in only 6-8 weeks", and then we look like tools.

It sucks but this is what we deal with.
EXACTLY! Just like the salesman from the Chicago area working the Chicago Auto Show Camaro display, handing out business cards and telling people ORDER NOW and GET A CAR THIS SUMMER! Then later when I told him I was from a dealership, he said they had like 17 allocated, and already had 30 ordered.....Well, all those show people that went to him to order for a "SUMMER" car are in for a rude surprise !!!!

Like I said - there's more than KNOWING the car, the EQUALLY important thing is to have placed an order from a dealer YOU CAN TRUST! Also, a dealer that answers your questions! Anyone who ordered from me knows they can call ANY TIME, and if I have news about their order going in, or status changes, I WILL CALL THEM! This is the way it SHOULD BE!
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Old 05-13-2009, 07:27 PM   #21
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^^^ sadly thats me...in for a rude surprise =/
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:48 PM   #22
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We have had that conversation. However, we have plenty of knuckleheads that walk out with the old "That's why GM is failing because..." remark. Then they walk into the next dealer down the road where the salesperson doesn't know s**t and says, "Sure, we're getting plenty in only 6-8 weeks", and then we look like tools.

It sucks but this is what we deal with.
Well, you guys did the right thing by giving full disclosure.
If the customer walks, they walk. You can't control what people do. If you do the right thing, good things will happen.
And you may look like tools at first, but when that customer that's gone to the other dealer doesn't get his car when the 2nd dealer said, who's gonna look like a tool then? All of a sudden, you guys will look like honest people.
And THAT will pay back in spades.

So keep up the good work.
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:40 AM   #23
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Thanks for shooting straight, providing accurate information, and not packing the customer's orders. That is all we could want in a dealer. I wish you guys were closer to me.

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Old 05-14-2009, 06:12 AM   #24
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I am #7 out of 6 allocated, but I bought from my dealer because he was honest with me he told me he couldn't promise when I would get my car!! When does Q3 start?
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Old 05-14-2009, 07:03 AM   #25
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We have had that conversation. However, we have plenty of knuckleheads that walk out with the old "That's why GM is failing because..." remark. Then they walk into the next dealer down the road where the salesperson doesn't know s**t and says, "Sure, we're getting plenty in only 6-8 weeks", and then we look like tools.

It sucks but this is what we deal with.
I'm from Long Island and have seen this happen.... Not at the dealer I went to but at a dealer that was showing a CTF car, who sold their first 15 pre-orders for $3k over sticker. And took TONS of pre-orders that day. Considering the atmosphere and how quick they were getting people to sit down I have serious doubts they were telling them they won't have a car till December.
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