February 2013 Camaro Sales and Production Figures (and vs. Mustang & Challenger)

[Enator]

February 2013 Delivery (sales) Stats:

Camaro February 2013 Deliveries (actual sales): 6,171 -11% (Pr Ye)

February 2013 Production Stats:

Camaro Produced in February 2013: 8,224

Compared to Competition:

Mustang sold 6,024 units in February 2013 -18% (Pr Ye)
Challenger sold 4911 units in February 2013 +34% (Pr Ye)

[NVmyZL1]

Looks like the Mustang, in he last year of that platforms 10-year run and the Gen5 Camaro on its 4th year of production, are in a virtual sales dead heat. Good news for all ponycar fans!

[90503]

Personally, I always root for the Challengers...lol...Nothing but love for the Hemis...looks like they had a good month...

[v6sonoma]

Wow. It's amazing to think there are 326K Camaros out in the wild now. I think that must make the Camaro team vary happy. Especially when you look at how the 4th gen struggled to sell in it's last few years. Just goes to show how great the car really is.

[doc7000]

This was the second best February for the trio since the Camaro returened (combined).

Feb. 2010: 13,746
Feb. 2011: 13,169
Feb. 2012: 17,943
Feb. 2013: 17,169

And if anyone thinks that this market segment is in any trouble at all or questions them building more of these cars in the future consider these numbers.

2009: 135,699
2010: 191,806
2011: 193,623
2012: 210,505

Yep, despite what some people try to claim (mainly Ford fans butt hurt about the Mustang being out sold) these segment is actually growing. In fact I would say that both Ford and Dodge benefited greatly from the Camaro as the Camaro has generated buzz and interested for all vehicles in this segment. People who may have read an article to check out the Camaro got to see the performance numbers and read about the Dodge and Ford as well.

Also the slack that the Camaro and Mustang have seen in the market recently has been more then made up for by the Dodge Challenger.

Then there is the aspect of this data that we don't really get to say, that is profits. While Dodge sells a lot less vehicles then what both Ford and Chevy sales for all we know they can be very profitable (when they are not heavily discounted). High profits justifies throwing money into small market vehicles, if you can make the kind of profits selling 40,000 Challengers a year that you do selling 200,000 Dodge Darts a year then its the better way to go (though they should make both).

[Kyle2k]

Originally Posted by 90503

Personally, I always root for the Challengers...lol...Nothing but love for the Hemis...looks like they had a good month...

Agreed

Originally Posted by NVmyZL1

Looks like the Mustang, in he last year of that platforms 10-year run and the Gen5 Camaro on its 4th year of production, are in a virtual sales dead heat. Good news for all ponycar fans!

Originally Posted by v6sonoma

Wow. It's amazing to think there are 326K Camaros out in the wild now. I think that must make the Camaro team vary happy. Especially when you look at how the 4th gen struggled to sell in it's last few years. Just goes to show how great the car really is.

I wounder how incentives are on both cars?

[ford727]

S197 mustangs sold 320,000 in first two years. That is what drew Camaro and Challenger
back in production. The S197 is a bit different from the Chevy or Dodge.
The difference is 107" wheel base and the 8.8" fixed rear axle. The S197 has more throwback design.
66-67-68 stangs: 107wb fixed 9" axle. At the time, throwback was the idea. The competition is upgraded from the pony type, more: wb, track, hp, torque, cid, independent rear, length, width, weight.
Less mpg, more insurance premimium. I admire the Chevy and Dodge. Great cars. I find the mustang more fun to drive. My 07 GT is modified for handling and throttle response. I have it down to 3250 pounds-dry. i would not trade it for a new stang, camaro, or challenger. Sometimes you want you have and have what you want.

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by ford727

S197 mustangs sold 320,000 in first two years. That is what drew Camaro and Challenger
back in production. The S197 is a bit different from the Chevy or Dodge.
The difference is 107" wheel base and the 8.8" fixed rear axle. The S197 has more throwback design.
66-67-68 stangs: 107wb fixed 9" axle. At the time, throwback was the idea. The competition is upgraded from the pony type, more: wb, track, hp, torque, cid, independent rear, length, width, weight.
Less mpg, more insurance premimium. I admire the Chevy and Dodge. Great cars. I find the mustang more fun to drive. My 07 GT is modified for handling and throttle response. I have it down to 3250 pounds-dry. i would not trade it for a new stang, camaro, or challenger. Sometimes you want you have and have what you want.

Even though the 2005 and 2006 Mustang moved a ton of metal those sales numbers were in the decline. I really wouldn't go as far as giving the Mustang that much credit for both the Camaro and Challenger. Especially considering that at GM there are those inside that wanted to do a Camaro since it went away. Really if the SSR did well, and the GTO did well we likely wouldn't have a Camaro. Those two vehicles failing in the market place played a role, the Mustang doing well showed that there was good demand in this segment.

If you love what you drive then I say more power to you, for others we are still looking for what we can love to drive every day.

On the formula for a pony car, a solid rear axle isn't actually part of the formula. Solid rear axles were normal when the pony cars got their start and has been a left over from that era which is mostly gone. With the next Mustang going to a IRS the solid rear axle is likely to be gone for good on performance cars.

The pony car started life off as a compact, inexpensive, and sporty 2 door 2+2. The three have a base price in the range of $22,000-$24,000 (not counting discounts) and have V-6 engines above 300BHP. The base models really fit the pony car formula the best at the moment....

[ford727]

I am not following your 'sales numbers in decline' statement.
I believe the 2005 and 2006 Mustang sales averaged 160,000 units per year, I am looking for backup on that.
The Mustang numbers I can find online for 2002 are 142,404 units, for 2003 are 155,370 units, and for 2004 are 141,907 units.

GM killed Camaro/Firebird in 2002. Camaro returns seven years later (Pontiac terminated).
I was a high school kid in the 60s that could not afford any car. Now I can afford em' all.
I have driven the Challenger, ridden in the Camaro. They are great cars, but different from the S197 Mustang. It is to me, the 107wb, solid rear axle, and smaller package "hot rod' road feel. It seems you are saying something like that talking about the early history of these cars.

I don"t see Mustang as a sports car, to me they are hot rod platforms. The S197s are the best handling mustangs of the 48 year history.
Back to Camaro Challenger, they are not Pony cars by your definition. They are sedan based. The Camaro is an AUS-Holden Pontiac G8 reduced by two doors, two wheel base inches, substituting the 378HP pontiac engine with the Corvette LS3 (I think) engine, driving a Tremec 6061 trans. That is a great car, I find no flaws in that package nor do 300,000+ buyers.
The Challenger at 116" wb 4100# has a distinctive sedan feel. I have put 160000 miles on two Crown Vics nice riding cars, but sedans! You don't have to agree, but, to me the Mustang is more fun to drive. It is no where ride refined as Camaro with IRS, 600 additional pounds, and 112" whee;base. I don't want it to be.

[S-eatin-grin]

Over 325K Camaros out there and I still rarely see another one while driving on a daily basis. I was suprised the numbers are as "good" as they are. Perhaps there are regions where the Camaro is more popular than where I am...I here they are all over the place in Texas.

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by ford727

I am not following your 'sales numbers in decline' statement.
I believe the 2005 and 2006 Mustang sales averaged 160,000 units per year, I am looking for backup on that.
The Mustang numbers I can find online for 2002 are 142,404 units, for 2003 are 155,370 units, and for 2004 are 141,907 units.

GM killed Camaro/Firebird in 2002. Camaro returns seven years later (Pontiac terminated).
I was a high school kid in the 60s that could not afford any car. Now I can afford em' all.
I have driven the Challenger, ridden in the Camaro. They are great cars, but different from the S197 Mustang. It is to me, the 107wb, solid rear axle, and smaller package "hot rod' road feel. It seems you are saying something like that talking about the early history of these cars.

I don"t see Mustang as a sports car, to me they are hot rod platforms. The S197s are the best handling mustangs of the 48 year history.
Back to Camaro Challenger, they are not Pony cars by your definition. They are sedan based. The Camaro is an AUS-Holden Pontiac G8 reduced by two doors, two wheel base inches, substituting the 378HP pontiac engine with the Corvette LS3 (I think) engine, driving a Tremec 6061 trans. That is a great car, I find no flaws in that package nor do 300,000+ buyers.
The Challenger at 116" wb 4100# has a distinctive sedan feel. I have put 160000 miles on two Crown Vics nice riding cars, but sedans! You don't have to agree, but, to me the Mustang is more fun to drive. It is no where ride refined as Camaro with IRS, 600 additional pounds, and 112" whee;base. I don't want it to be.

No one said sports car, the Mustang when created was a pony car creating that segment and a pony car was a small, inexpensive, and sporty car.

2007: 158,180
2008: 108,767
2009: 46,420

Yes the Camaro is based on a sedan platform, however if it still meets the low cost, sporty, 2+2 then it still fits into the pony car.

If you want the next Mustang to handle even better then you want it to have an IRS. Truth be told the Challenger probably fits the muscle car niche more then it does the pony car. Also there is less then 600 pounds between the Mustang and Camaro.....

[90503]

My understanding of the "pony car" is from the Mustang...it was a new class/size of car with a smaller trunk, 2 door, 4 seat (but basically only two) with a smaller cab, and still a relatively long hood...A sporty look for sure...It started with engine sizes that were compatible with the cars size...(therefore not "muscle" at first)...

Chevy responded a few years later with the Camaro in the pony car class...
The Challenger also had the same basic body style...

Started as pony cars...became Muscle Cars in the pony car class when larger than "needed" engines were available...

[b4z]

I don't think Chrysler ver thought they would almost sell 5000 challys a month, much less that many during a winter month. Good for them, even though I find it slab sided, tall and big.

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by 90503

My understanding of the "pony car" is from the Mustang...it was a new class/size of car with a smaller trunk, 2 door, 4 seat (but basically only two) with a smaller cab, and still a relatively long hood...A sporty look for sure...It started with engine sizes that were compatible with the cars size...(therefore not "muscle" at first)...

Chevy responded a few years later with the Camaro in the pony car class...
The Challenger also had the same basic body style...

Started as pony cars...became Muscle Cars in the pony car class when larger than "needed" engines were available...

I look at the big engine pony cars as hybrids between pony cars and muscle cars. Much like the big block Corvettes were hybrids between pony car and muscle car, though some people label all American performance cars muscle cars (in other words cars that can not brake or turn and has a low top speed).

[RPI Designs]

Thanks for the info!

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by ford727

You don't have to agree, but, to me the Mustang is more fun to drive. It is no where ride refined as Camaro with IRS, 600 additional pounds, and 112" whee;base. I don't want it to be.

There's ~ 250lb difference between the two cars. That's the equivalent of having your sister ride shotgun.

Sure you can strip out the interior and shave some weight here and there, but you can do that to ANY car. Perhaps you would be better suited in a Miata? IRS, lightweight, and short wheelbase!

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

There's ~ 250lb difference between the two cars. That's the equivalent of having your sister ride shotgun.

Sure you can strip out the interior and shave some weight here and there, but you can do that to ANY car. Perhaps you would be better suited in a Miata? IRS, lightweight, and short wheelbase!

I have been debating the merits of getting a V-6 Camaro and turning it into a track car (as opposed to a 1LE Camaro).

[ford727]

Weight: I refer to my 07 GT only. Factory spec is 3356#. The MSO lists 3353# at the rail head in Flat Rock, MI. The car is premium GT-leather-satellite-pro sound etc. Shed 40# substituting the 4 motor air bag equipped driver seat with Procar fixed back drifter seat-plasric shell. Shed 20# with single section 4.0" dia alum drive shaft. Shed 17# with Fidanza alum flywheel & Centerforce dual friction. Shed weight with smaller harmonic balancer in undrive pulley set, removed charge motion control valves and actuator motor, Steeda cold-air, rear controls arms, alum radiator etc. Remove the spare tire and jack and hardware, the car is under 3250# and not stripped down, I want the passenger side airbag and back seats, the AC and all the amenities. I believe the 426HP SS 6 speed manual is about 3850#-dry.
That is where the 600# is referenced. The newer GTs are indeed heavier than 2007, and by 300#.
In a stock weight comparo 07GT to 2013SS the is a 500# gap. Obviously, I like cars and I like to drive. The mods took place over six years of ownership. You can understand my reference to "hot rod" platform. For every car mine is faster than there is at least one other faster than mine. So I drive carefully, I have too much invested to wreck the thing.

[ford727]

Thanks for the sales numbers on the 2007-2009 S197. First off I enjoy this site, everyone is educated and up on cars. Second you are right doc7000, the numbers were in decline. There is a story behind that, the US started shedding jobs by the millions in 2008 and 2009 and housing prices crashed and business bankruptcies were high, GM being one. I think that impacted cars sales more than appeal of the car.
At some point there is saturation. Everyone eligible to have one has one. Ford accurately identified a demographic they aimed their modern-retro Mustang at in 2005. Rick Wagoner, GM CEO, in his 2006 announcement of the Camaro return to production, clearly referenced the S197 success as the factor. Detroit is all about numbers. They had to revive the Camaro. History repeated, is that not the same way it happened in th 60s? SuperBowl Feb 2005, the Steve McQueen Mustang field of dreams commercial was all it took. GM and Dodge were coming back.

Well how many babyboomers still want a steel body, long hood, short rear deck, 2 door, V8, solid rear axle, pony car in 2014 and 2015 and 201?. Ten years of modern retro is enough. Ford is going on to something more 370Z like, IRS, 4Cyl, ecoBoost, Digital screen, smaller, lighter and Yuk! I might not like it, but I have crossed the 60 year old mile post and it ain't about me or guys like me anymore.
Regardless, the pony car I have is fun to drive. I truly believe the Camaro and Challenger guys feel the same. However Camaro and Challenger can ride the retro wave longer because those platforms are a little different from a Mustang. Give Ford credit for this, S197 is nice balance, they did not cheat you on modern nor did they cheat on retro.

[ORANGE U NV]

[/B]

Originally Posted by ford727

I am not following your 'sales numbers in decline' statement.
I believe the 2005 and 2006 Mustang sales averaged 160,000 units per year, I am looking for backup on that.
The Mustang numbers I can find online for 2002 are 142,404 units, for 2003 are 155,370 units, and for 2004 are 141,907 units.

GM killed Camaro/Firebird in 2002. Camaro returns seven years later (Pontiac terminated).
I was a high school kid in the 60s that could not afford any car. Now I can afford em' all.
I have driven the Challenger, ridden in the Camaro. They are great cars, but different from the S197 Mustang. It is to me, the 107wb, solid rear axle, and smaller package "hot rod' road feel. It seems you are saying something like that talking about the early history of these cars.

I don"t see Mustang as a sports car, to me they are hot rod platforms. The S197s are the best handling mustangs of the 48 year history.
Back to Camaro Challenger, they are not Pony cars by your definition. They are sedan based. The Camaro is an AUS-Holden Pontiac G8 reduced by two doors, two wheel base inches, substituting the 378HP pontiac engine with the Corvette LS3 (I think) engine, driving a Tremec 6061 trans. That is a great car, I find no flaws in that package nor do 300,000+ buyers.
The Challenger at 116" wb 4100# has a distinctive sedan feel. I have put 160000 miles on two Crown Vics nice riding cars, but sedans! You don't have to agree, but, to me the Mustang is more fun to drive. It is no where ride refined as Camaro with IRS, 600 additional pounds, and 112" whee;base. I don't want it to be.

Wasn't the Ford Fox body platform that the started in 1979 and lasted for decades...... a shorten version of the Ford Fairmont? They even shared the same dash and windshield. :faint2:

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by ford727

Thanks for the sales numbers on the 2007-2009 S197. First off I enjoy this site, everyone is educated and up on cars. Second you are right doc7000, the numbers were in decline. There is a story behind that, the US started shedding jobs by the millions in 2008 and 2009 and housing prices crashed and business bankruptcies were high, GM being one. I think that impacted cars sales more than appeal of the car.
At some point there is saturation. Everyone eligible to have one has one. Ford accurately identified a demographic they aimed their modern-retro Mustang at in 2005. Rick Wagoner, GM CEO, in his 2006 announcement of the Camaro return to production, clearly referenced the S197 success as the factor. Detroit is all about numbers. They had to revive the Camaro. History repeated, is that not the same way it happened in th 60s? SuperBowl Feb 2005, the Steve McQueen Mustang field of dreams commercial was all it took. GM and Dodge were coming back.

Well how many babyboomers still want a steel body, long hood, short rear deck, 2 door, V8, solid rear axle, pony car in 2014 and 2015 and 201?. Ten years of modern retro is enough. Ford is going on to something more 370Z like, IRS, 4Cyl, ecoBoost, Digital screen, smaller, lighter and Yuk! I might not like it, but I have crossed the 60 year old mile post and it ain't about me or guys like me anymore.
Regardless, the pony car I have is fun to drive. I truly believe the Camaro and Challenger guys feel the same. However Camaro and Challenger can ride the retro wave longer because those platforms are a little different from a Mustang. Give Ford credit for this, S197 is nice balance, they did not cheat you on modern nor did they cheat on retro.

If sales only started to decline in 2008 then I would agree that it was mostly the cause of the economy and the credit market locking up. However sales were in decline even before that sales point, the market has more then recovered from that though with two other players in it.

Also there is still a market for a long hood and short deck, it is just that a solid rear axle can no longer cut it (no longer competitive).

[ford727]

Probably right. If the Camaro had a chevy 10 bolt rear axle with a 3.73:1 ring gear I think it would be awesome.

[ford727]

Every vehicle in NASCAR runs a Ford 9" rear axle-by rule. How about a Camaro with Ford 9" and a 3.90:1 ring gear. Would that cut it?

[Forty5th]

Originally Posted by ford727

Weight: I refer to my 07 GT only....
For every car mine is faster than there is at least one other faster than mine. So I drive carefully, I have too much invested to wreck the thing.

Your yellow orange GT looks sharp! Nice ride...

[ford727]

I think these are two of the cars that are faster than mine.