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Old 07-12-2013, 03:06 AM   #1
HarryNW
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Dealership says CAI is the problem...? (RESOLVED!)

I purchased my 2013 2SS/RS 7 weeks ago at the Bill Pierre dealership on Lake City Way in Seattle, WA. I almost immediately felt like the idle was a little rough and there was some obvious hesitation and bucking at low RPM, especially on a cold start.

Being my first real muscle car, I thought this might be normal. I proceeded with a few trivial mods: F8 Fuse Pull for Dual-mode exhaust, C.A.I. CAI, Skip-Shift Eliminator and the Octane Fuel Correction. I also checked my MAF for "weak/strong" and (a week after the CAI install) thoroughly cleaned the MAF with MAF cleaner.

Still, I continued to have rough idle, hesitation and bucking in lower-rpm, especially in the morning.

I called the service manager at the dealership about it and he said to definitely bring it in. We agreed the best plan was to drop off the prior night to allow the service team to see how it looked on a cold start, so last night I dropped it off. I told him to be sure they test-drove it, as the rough idle was subtle, but the hesitation/bucking was completely obvious in a test drive.

This morning by 10am, the service manager called me to say that there were no engine codes (we already knew/discussed that previously) and that they "could not properly test the car until it has the after-market CAI removed". I asked if they even test drove it and he said no. I insisted that the CAI would not cause this type of behavior and re-iterated the importance of test driving. He said there was nothing more they will do to test/troubleshoot the car until I remove the CAI, but would ask someone to test drive it.

As this was my first visit to the service department, and because I am new to most of this, I did not want to burn any bridges and agreed to come pick up the car and schedule a new drop-off for this Sunday night, giving me time to put the stock air filter back on.

However, by the time I got to the dealer to pick up the car, I had digested how much effort it will take to swap out the CAI and frankly felt pissed that I would go through this effort only to prove to him that this is not a CAI issue. He mentioned that they took a short test drive and did not notice any bucking.

I later had by brother-in-law (big-time motorhead, big mustang customizer) drive the car and he immediately noticed the idle and hesitation. He was actually able to show me that even at higher RPM, if I simply kept a stable RPM at 3,000, the engine was missing/hesitation rather than maintaining a consistent run. He said that if the dealer was not willing to put it on the computer, that a local speed shop could probably tell me exactly what was wrong in an hour or less, without actually applying a tune, but it would run a few hundred bucks.

My current plan is to put the stock air filter back on, replace the F8 fuse, take it back to the dealer, and see what they say.

Any thoughts/feedback?

------------------------------
Update: July 16th - Bottom Line: Move the Window Fluid Reservoir

Per the thread history, I had finally identified that there was something about the CAI install that caused the hesitation/bucking - I replaced the stock AF and the issue disappeared. Tonight, I re-installed the CAI. As I did so, I was staring at the C.A.I. heat-shield-box and I am thinking - where is the airflow? The stock AF has major open routes from beneath the engine and to the sides of the AF arm. When contained in the CAI box, the fluid reservoir consumes nearly every inch of open area beneath the CAI filter.

So I decide to leave the CAI plexi-glass cover off the box (it leaves a scant 2 inches of clearance to the underside of the hood), close the hood, and go for a little drive. Bingo, no more hesitation/bucking. I return, re-add the cover, and test drive - noticeable hesitations, especially in the 2000-3000 RPM range under modest acceleration. I return, remove it again, test drive again, no hesitation in acceleration.

Just ordered the relocation kit for the fluid reservoir, but will keep the CAI cover off until then.

Next, I installed the VMAX Ported Throttle Body. I can see why people have been excited about this - obviously you cannot sense the few HP gain, but the VMAX PTB clearly provides an improvement to throttle response. It now leaps out when I punch it.

My bottom line: I should have read more about various brands of CAI and their recommended installation tips - even though C.A.I. does not specifically call out the relocation of the fluid reservoir, it should be highly recommended up front. There are some other posts here that recommend doing this, and even go so far as to say that adding this type of "boxed" CAI without relocating the reservoir is a step backwards. I can now wholeheartedly agree.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:13 AM   #2
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You're running 91-93 octane right?

You should be idling between around 500-600 rpms
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:18 AM   #3
HarryNW
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I ran the dealership fill down to fumes and have run nothing but 93 Octane for every fill-up.

To be clearer about the idle, it is subtle - it remains at 500, but every second or so it almost sounds like it is skipping a cylinder. It actually sounds like a classic camaro on the 1/4 mile line with a slight miss, but should not be like that for a stock build. I actually think it makes the car sound mean. If not for the hesitation/bucking I would not have said a word - there are even other posts/thread here that talk about the LS3 and a "rough idle", but they do not mention the hesitation/bucking.

To be fair, I think my thread title is a little off - it should be "Dealership says it cannot troubleshoot car with the CAI" - regardless, it just seems like they took an easy out once they saw the CAI. Why not do a computer check and a cursory check of the main suspects, like timing, compression on each cylinder, etc.?
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:26 AM   #4
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What dealer are you attempting to have it serviced at because I am having issues at a Seattle area shop as well.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:28 AM   #5
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It just sounds like a fuel deal too me. Do a fuse pull and see what happens. Start with the little solutions
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:44 AM   #6
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Have done the Octane (5/20/trunk ECM) fuse pull, about 2-3 weeks ago - made no difference.

Servicing at the same place I bought it - Pierre Chev on Lake City Way.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:51 AM   #7
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How does the car do when warmed up. These cars have many sensors and they have to get to operating temp before the car runs smooth. If I start my car up in the morning and let it run 5 minutes she is ready to run like a bat out of hell. But if I just start her up and drive he it takes about 3-4 miles to have her ready to run great. This is usually only after sitting all night.

I have CAI, VMAX Throttle Body. My old L99 2010 was the same way.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryNW View Post
Have done the Octane (5/20/trunk ECM) fuse pull, about 2-3 weeks ago - made no difference.

Servicing at the same place I bought it - Pierre Chev on Lake City Way.
Not where I got mine. Good luck.
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:00 AM   #9
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Hmmm, sounds about the same Scott - I still notice slight hesitations at running temperatures, but not nearly as noticeable like it is on a cold start.

Have my VMAX PTB sitting in a box awaiting the results of this little investigation... Clock is ticking to get that swap credit in time...

Daily drive car for me, and just frankly surprised that this much technology needs a 60's-era warm-up period, but if the veterans here on C5 agree this is a matter of warm-up time, then I will shelf the issue until I get a first tune...

Anyone else think this is a warm-up period issue?
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:14 AM   #10
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I have a 2010 w/ LS3 and I don't do any kind of warm up. I start it, wait about 10 secs for the oil to get to where it needs to go and drive. I have no problem with rough idle, and no bucking at any speed. I have never heard of anyone going through a warm-up procedure until I read this.

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Old 07-12-2013, 04:30 AM   #11
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Just take it somewhere else.
And check if the air intake is on correct and snug.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:07 AM   #12
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You may want to ask this question in the V8 bolt on section of this site.
There are a couple of guys over there that know these motors.....

BTW, Thanks for posting this, I look forward to hearing more on this.
Mine idles a little rough in the morning..... I don't let it "warm" up, but I do take my time before I leave the drvieway.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:30 AM   #13
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On a car that new what you should have done was make sure they fixed your car before modding. I'm not attempting to fix anything on a new car by investing in mods. The mods are for my enjoyment. With the amount of money you paid you deserve to have a perfect running car without worry. Now you are kind of at the mercy of the dealer you choose to provide you with service. I would be more upset with myself right now than anyone else... Good luck and try a new dealer and see of they want you to take the CAI off as well.

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Old 07-12-2013, 08:40 AM   #14
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What brand CAI did you go with ?

I know on my car, it always runs like crap when it's started until it warms up. That's just typical of the LS3, and so is the somewhat rough idle. I really don't think you have any worries unless you went with a K&N CAI.
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:59 AM   #15
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What brand CAI did you go with ?

I know on my car, it always runs like crap when it's started until it warms up. That's just typical of the LS3, and so is the somewhat rough idle. I really don't think you have any worries unless you went with a K&N CAI.
He says its a CAI!
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:08 AM   #16
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You do not want a CAI that has you coat it in oil #1, #2 you should have slight if any noticable lope at a cold start as our cams are not very radical...ANs #3 for almost every small block chevy known to man the idle for a manual transmission should not be as low as 500rpm building engines I always used to get by with the idle for a auto trans in the day about 600 and the manual more towards 700 and yes if it was really cammed it would lope like a top fuel dragster in Pasadena. Your stupid dealers are just being anal and saying it has to be that as they are butt heads who want to test your knowledge and mess with you at the same time, or are just plain stupid. And if you have had to use maf cleaner...why is it a oiled filter? Yes they tend to screw with the sensors as it gets on them. Most people have had or heard of bad things happening with oiled filters and can happen, its only gonna happen once in a while to cars that have used the oiled filter a lot usually unless its been just drenched and done wrong. AS is sounds like you should reset your fuel table and stick the thing on a good old fashioned sun machine to look for problems with misfire around 3000 rpm as you may have a bad plug wire, the plug could be cracked.....or electrical insulation of the wire is causing problems with the wire next to it or something else, and your friend is right to put it on a computer, this manager obviously had a flunkie plug in a code reader whooooo hoooo this is the best you can expect from this butt monkey trying to blame your CAI, God if you only had fuzzy dice in the mirror ....look out........Your hesitation could be from the bad idle from the bad....fuel table, the bad spark plug wire, the bad electronics that are the distributor, a clogged fuel injector that defective or flying monkeys. Just driving the car can show a problem but not giving it a real good check up is not going to help at all as this guy is doing what a butt monkey does....He does not want to spend time on it, so it points to his crap and says his does not stink it has to be yours.............
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:15 AM   #17
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The CAI is not the problem. The dealership knows this and doesn't want to troubleshoot the problem. They want to sell a major assembly or do a service that is high volume and can be turned quickly to get another car in the bay. Follow the money.
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:49 AM   #18
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I suspect OP's concern is NORMAL OPERATION. The 6.2L (more LS3 than L99) does have a bit of a rough idle. It's a performance engine, and is supposed to! The cold surge is normal, also. It disturbed me at first, so I drove another one and it did the same thing.

As for the dealer's statement that the OEM air cleaner was needed before testing, that is also correct. A tech needs a stock vehicle in front of him to diagnose properly. Keep in mind that the diagnostic routines and books that he uses are designed for stock cars. He doesn't want to chase ghosts that hide in aftermarket parts.

Been there, done that.
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:36 AM   #19
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I suspect OP's concern is NORMAL OPERATION. The 6.2L (more LS3 than L99) does have a bit of a rough idle. It's a performance engine, and is supposed to! The cold surge is normal, also. It disturbed me at first, so I drove another one and it did the same thing.

As for the dealer's statement that the OEM air cleaner was needed before testing, that is also correct. A tech needs a stock vehicle in front of him to diagnose properly. Keep in mind that the diagnostic routines and books that he uses are designed for stock cars. He doesn't want to chase ghosts that hide in aftermarket parts.

Been there, done that.
I agree with everything you said. Our new 1LE has a rough idle and a bit of hesitation when I start it. It continues as I back out of the garage, and drive down my street to the subdivision exit (all about 1/2 mile or so). After I pull out on the main road, and the engine has some temp, it is gone. I do not believe OP has anything to worry about.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:03 AM   #20
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I suspect OP's concern is NORMAL OPERATION. The 6.2L (more LS3 than L99) does have a bit of a rough idle. It's a performance engine, and is supposed to! The cold surge is normal, also. It disturbed me at first, so I drove another one and it did the same thing.

As for the dealer's statement that the OEM air cleaner was needed before testing, that is also correct. A tech needs a stock vehicle in front of him to diagnose properly. Keep in mind that the diagnostic routines and books that he uses are designed for stock cars. He doesn't want to chase ghosts that hide in aftermarket parts.

Been there, done that.
I totally concur, as a former general manager of a dealership, there is no conspiracy here- dealers are geared for troubleshooting stock cars...they are kinda being a dick, but they are in the right. Warranty requires them to do things in certain ways to get paid.

That being said, I also have a hesitation/miss at idle and just chalk it up to normal operation. I also have a CAI...
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:27 AM   #21
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Harry, try taking it to Sunset in Sumner. I've heard they tend to look the other way on mods a little more then most.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:59 AM   #22
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Alright, I really appreciate the responses here. It is a mix of should/should not have the hesitation/bucking (again, it is not really as much about the idle than the low RPM hesitations/bucking).

Based on above, I will be re-installing the stock air filter, re-cleaning the MAF, and see how it runs. If it still does the same, I will take it in Sunday night and make sure that on Monday they are running it through a full diagnostic.

If still nothing reported, I am going to take it to a local speed shop and lay down a few hundred bucks for a quick analysis. I want to get to know this local shop anyways to see if they are a good choice for some future installs (IPS or AGM TT) and this is a good appetizer gig.

Again, I appreciate the feedback!

Oh and on the CAI - I specifically chose C.A.I. after extensive reading on this forum and because they offer both an oiled (default) and dry filter option.

On the "should have fixed before modding" - per above, I have spent many, many hours reading here on C5 about various mods. I chose to install only a single mod (other than the various fuse pulls) - the CAI - as I do not want any debate over warranty coverage until I get beyond 10K-15K mileage. Based on everything I have read, CAI and VMAX PTB have not been something questioned by dealers and this is the first time I have seen a mention of a dealer considering a CAI something that would halt all subsequent analysis of the engine. I still struggle with the "stock or bust" perspective from the dealership on the CAI, but willing to take those lumps if needed to complete the findings. All good feedback, much appreciated.

Last edited by HarryNW; 07-12-2013 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:09 PM   #23
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Alright, I really appreciate the responses here. It is a mix of should/should not have the hesitation/bucking (again, it is not really as much about the idle than the low RPM hesitations/bucking.

Based on above, I will be re-installing the stock air filter, re-cleaning the MAF, and see how it runs. If it still does the same, I will take it in Sunday night and make sure that on Monday they are running it through a full diagnostic.

If still nothing reported, I am going to take it to a local speed shop and lay down a few hundred bucks for a quick analysis. I want to get to know this local shop anyways to see if they are a good choice for some future installs (IPS or AGM TT) and this is a good appetizer gig.

Again, I appreciate the feedback!

Oh and on the CAI - I specifically chose C.A.I. after extensive reading on this forum and because they offer both an oiled (default) and dry filter option.

On the "should have fixed before modding" - per above, I have spent many, many hours reading here on C5 about various mods. I chose to install only a single mod (other than the various fuse pulls) - the CAI - as I do not want any debate over warranty coverage until I get beyond 10K-15K mileage. Based on everything I have read, CAI and VMAX PTB have not been something questioned by dealers and this is the first time I have seen a mention of a dealer considering a CAI something that would halt all subsequent analysis of the engine. I still struggle with the "stock or bust" perspective from the dealership on the CAI, but willing to take those lumps if needed to complete the findings. All good feedback, much appreciated.
Best of luck!
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:15 PM   #24
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I had the same exact experience with totally stock engine. Miss at idle and once or twice on hard acceleration.

It cleared up almost completely with more miles. Better at 1500, but I noticed it a lot better at 5000 mi. I always use 93 octane.

My suspicion is that the rings don't seal well until miles accumulate, so you get blow-by and oil ingestion that wrecks the idle.

I also along the way ensured all of the electrical connections where tight. I found a TSB that the camshaft position sensor could have some prongs loose not fully engaged and to push each one within the plug tight. Someone here had to re-seat a sparkplug.

Having said that I the idle is not perfect compared to say, our Suburban, but I don't hear the miss except randomly now.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:39 PM   #25
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I installed a Airaid Intake on my Vette last summer and it made the car run like you described,it also set a code of rich left and right bank,when I put the stock air filter back on all cleared up,I ran the stock set up for a week then cleared codes and put the Airaid back on,same thing happened I contacted Airaid and they sugested I make sure all contacts are tight and run for at least a few hundred miles for the computer to learn and adjust for added air. well nothing changed so I wrote back and told them of my problem ,they sent out a new intake horn and that was the whole proble,sent the old one back to Airaid and they tested it and found a pinhole in a seam.
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