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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 03-13-2014, 11:25 AM   #1
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Lightbulb Camaro Z/28 Engineers Get a Grip on Wheel Slip [Video Added]

Camaro Z/28 Engineers Get a Grip on Wheel Slip
Tire grip, braking capability require action to prevent wheels rotating in tires




2014-03-13


DETROIT – While running fast laps at several of the country’s most challenging tracks, Camaro Z/28 engineers noticed the tires were providing so much traction and the brakes so much stopping force that the wheels rotated inside the tire – an unexpected challenge that required fast thinking.

“We were told to build a fast car – period,” said Mark Stielow, Camaro Z/28 program manager and pro-touring expert. “We knew on Day One we’d need to bring some of the best suppliers onboard to make it happen.”

The suppliers included Pirelli and its P Zero™ Trofeo R tires and Brembo for carbon-ceramic brake rotors. The Trofeo R tires have a track-oriented tread design and compound that, together with the carbon-ceramic rotors, help the Z/28 achieve up to 1.5 g in deceleration force.

It was a perfect combination, but engineers quickly found that when the Z/28’s capability was tested, the wheels were rotating – slipping – inside the tires. They sought the root of the problem by marking one of the Pirelli P Zero™ Trofeo R tires at the beginning of a lap with a chalk line relative to the valve stem on the wheel. At the end of the lap, they recorded where the chalk line ended up and noticed the tire had rotated at least a full 360 degrees from where they started.

Racers use an abrasive paint around the bead of the wheel, where the tire meets the rim, to combat the problem on race cars. The Z/28’s engineers tried it, but it wasn’t strong enough to prevent the slippage, so other approaches were tried. Finally, they tried media blasting, which involves shooting a gritty material through an air gun at the wheel's surface, adding texture to the paint for the tire to grip.

“Media-blasting the wheel created an extremely aggressive grit on the rim, which finally got the tire to hold,” said Stielow.

Along with the tires and brakes, some of the tire slip can also be attributed to the 7.0L LS7 engine helping spin the wheels with an SAE-certified 505 horsepower (376 kW) and 481 lb-ft of torque (652 Nm). While going around corners, the helical-gear limited-slip rear differential also sends power to the wheels so well that differences in tire slip can be observed from side to side on the rear axle.

The 2014 Camaro Z/28 arrives in dealerships this spring.


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Old 03-13-2014, 11:32 AM   #2
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Wow that's interesting! I wonder how many vehicles run into that issue..
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:36 AM   #3
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Didnt even know that happened lol. Awesome.
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:41 AM   #4
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I thought they knurled the wheels to help prevent slipping?
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:42 AM   #5
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That's some power right there,
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:51 AM   #6
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Further proof that the Z/28 will be one hell of a machine!
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:53 AM   #7
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Common problem in racing and drag racing. Big time drags screw the rim right to the bead of the tire lol.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:10 PM   #8
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I thought they knurled the wheels to help prevent slipping?
I used Rays (Volk Racing) wheels because they had very grippy knurled bead seats. No rotating on the rim with those bad boys.

Knurling is a cost-adding production process though, and I can see where abrasive blasting the bead seat would accomplish the same result at lower cost.

Just another detail that trackers will appreciate. Aggravating to lose your wheel balance after the first session and then be running on "square" wheels. Once again kudos to GM from a person who understands and appreciates what they did with the Z/28.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:11 PM   #9
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Common problem in racing and drag racing. Big time drags screw the rim right to the bead of the tire lol.

I was waiting to see f that was how the fixed the issue!
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:18 PM   #10
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Wow, those tires must be like glue. They are UTQG= 60. Depending on where you race these are not class legit in a lot of the events that are out there.

But, that's a stunning accomplishment by GM. From the way it's been happening I'm guessing we are going to get a feature a week until it arrives at dealerships.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:31 PM   #11
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Depending on where you race these are not class legit in a lot of the events that are out there.
Specifically, what events?

The Z/28 is not a race car so your comment perplexes me. There are no limits on tires used at any DE/HPDE/PDX I attend other than minimum tread depth. The Trofeo is a street legal, DOT tire meant for use on street cars, it is not used in any "racing" series that I am aware of as it is not a racing slick.

Please explain with details.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:39 PM   #12
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I used Rays (Volk Racing) wheels because they had very grippy knurled bead seats. No rotating on the rim with those bad boys.

Knurling is a cost-adding production process though, and I can see where abrasive blasting the bead seat would accomplish the same result at lower cost.

Just another detail that trackers will appreciate. Aggravating to lose your wheel balance after the first session and then be running on "square" wheels. Once again kudos to GM from a person who understands and appreciates what they did with the Z/28.
I know what you're saying but I remember reading something about the Z/28 wheels being knurled. It was posted here a while back. I guess they could have changed from knurling to blasting if it was cheaper.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:44 PM   #13
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I know what you're saying but I remember reading something about the Z/28 wheels being knurled. It was posted here a while back. I guess they could have changed from knurling to blasting if it was cheaper.

I recall seeing the same thing with a picture of the inside of the wheel.
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:46 PM   #14
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So much for the "just drop a ___ motor in a 1LE Camaro, it's way overpriced, put a blower in it, etc., etc." comments. It's never as easy as it looks or sounds.
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:00 PM   #15
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So much for the "just drop a ___ motor in a 1LE Camaro, it's way overpriced, put a blower in it, etc., etc." comments. It's never as easy as it looks or sounds.

as stated this issue is common when racing. My drag car is getting beadlock wheels because it is basically doubling HP when it is back running.

From the drop in a LS7 into the 1LE crowd - those guys probably would have used the car as more of a street car anyway so this issue probably would not have concerned GM engineering as much

But this is their race car baby
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:02 PM   #16
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I'm confused...they are doing this instead of properly knurling the wheel? Or is in addition?
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:06 PM   #17
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now they need to take in back to the nurburgring and see if they get a faster time cuz of this lol
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:56 PM   #18
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now they need to take in back to the nurburgring and see if they get a faster time cuz of this lol
It's not something that would affect lap times. More about keeping the wheel/tire in balance. The amount of rotation of the tire on the wheel is not so much (as it would be in drag racing) that the slippage affects traction/torque to the pavement.
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Old 03-13-2014, 02:00 PM   #19
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I thought they knurled the wheels to help prevent slipping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropspeed View Post
I recall seeing the same thing with a picture of the inside of the wheel.
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I'm confused...they are doing this instead of properly knurling the wheel? Or is in addition?
You guys have good memory

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323436

Someone will have to ask the engineers why they made the change. I'd guess cost savings. Personally, as long as it works, I don't care if knurled or abrasive blasted.
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Old 03-13-2014, 02:15 PM   #20
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Here's the video:

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Old 03-13-2014, 02:25 PM   #21
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I'm confused...they are doing this instead of properly knurling the wheel? Or is in addition?
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Old 03-13-2014, 04:04 PM   #22
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I'm going to mark my tires next time I take it to the track to see of my wheels do that.
Very interesting.
Way to go GM!!!
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Old 03-13-2014, 04:15 PM   #23
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Specifically, what events?

The Z/28 is not a race car so your comment perplexes me. There are no limits on tires used at any DE/HPDE/PDX I attend other than minimum tread depth. The Trofeo is a street legal, DOT tire meant for use on street cars, it is not used in any "racing" series that I am aware of as it is not a racing slick.

Please explain with details.
My fault I should have been clearer. In some of the events I've been to have a minimum UTQG of 200 depending on the class you're in.
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Old 03-13-2014, 04:18 PM   #24
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This bulletin doesn't specifically apply to the Z/28,but rather all vehicles in general,just thought I would post it for some more information about how the slippage could be an issue.

Service Information




2014 Chevrolet Camaro | Camaro VIN F Service Manual 5534965 | View All Bulletins | Document ID: 3712007
#12-03-10-001A: Vibration Shortly After Tires are Mounted/Preventing Vibration from Wheel Slip (Tire Sliding on Wheel) - (Feb 21, 2014)
Subject: Vibration Shortly After Tires are Mounted/Preventing Vibration from Wheel Slip (Tire Sliding on Wheel)
Models: 2015 and Prior GM Passenger Cars and TrucksThis bulletin has been revised to add the 2014-2015 Model Years. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 12-03-10-001.

Information: Vibration Caused by Wheel Slip

A customer concern of vibration shortly after having a tire or tires mounted may be caused by slippage of the tires on the wheels, placing the imbalance point of the tire away from the weight location.
Wheel slip is a condition that occurs when the tire slips and rotates on the wheel during acceleration or braking. This can cause the assembly to become imbalanced and result in the customer returning with a vibration from the tire/wheel assembly. Wheel slip is most common on clear coated or chrome wheels with very smooth bead seat areas, but may also occur on other alloy or steel wheels. Most slippage occurs immediately after mounting.
Using preferred tire mounting lubricants and proper lubricant application techniques can prevent wheel slip from occurring.



Wheel slip normally occurs for the following reasons:
  • Excessive amount of lubricant used or lubricant applied in the wrong locations.
  • Improper lubricants, non-preferred lubricants or improperly diluted lubricants may contain excessive moisture or components that do not dry sufficiently, resulting in an interface between the tire and rim that is excessively slippery.
Checking For Wheel Slip
Vehicles that return immediately with ride disturbances and out of balance assemblies should be checked for wheel slip. Wheel slip can be checked by placing a temporary mark on the tire at the valve stem. After driving the vehicle, if the wheel slip is less than one inch, then wheel slip is probably not contributing to a ride disturbance. When wheel slip is greater than one inch, and you felt a ride disturbance on the test drive, then wheel slip may be causing the vibration.
Note: This diagnostic test will only be effective if the vehicle has been serviced within the last couple of hours.



Best Practices to Eliminate Wheel Slip


Wheel slip can usually be prevented with the proper application of tire mounting lubricants in a controlled and consistent manner. The following are some recommended best practices for eliminating wheel slip.
  1. Prior to the tire installation, clean the tire changer’s wheel-contact parts of any excess lubrication, dirt or grime.
  2. Clean the bead seat areas of the wheel of any leftover lubricant used to demount the tire.
  3. Inspect the tire to be installed and clean any manufacturing related lubricants from the bead area as necessary. Use an approved rubber cleaning fluid that would commonly be used during the tire repair process.
  4. Do not use products containing silicone, alcohol, petroleum based products, solvents or corrosives for cleaning or lubrication.
  5. Lubricate the tire and wheel as shown in the following illustrations. To eliminate wheel slip, the tire beads should normally only be lubricated from "heel to toe.” Lubricant applied outside the heel to toe zone will cause the tire to have reduced grip on the wheel and increase the likelihood of slippage. When lubricating the wheel, lubricate the safety humps, leave the rim flanges dry and lubricate the drop center area only for difficult to mount tires.
  6. When additional lubrication is required during mounting to prevent tire damage, the excess lubricant should be wiped or cleaned from the tire bead area and the wheel bead seat area before inflating to seat the beads.
  7. The mounting process must be completed within 10 minutes of the application of the mounting lubricant. Evaporation of the mounting lubricant after 10 minutes may prevent proper bead seating.
  8. Inflate the tires to 275 kPa (40 psi) when mounting, then reduce the air pressure to the desired operating pressure.
  9. Place a temporary mark on the sidewall of the tire at the valve stem.
  10. Rebalance the tires and mount on the vehicle.
  11. Park the vehicle for one hour to allow the lubricant to evaporate. Note: Technicians should not brake or accelerate quickly when moving vehicles from the hoist to the parking lot.
  12. Test drive the vehicle to confirm the ride disturbance has been corrected. Confirm that the mark on the tire is still aligned with the valve stem locations and remove the temporary mark. The above photo shows the possible amount of slip.
Preferred Lubricant Recommendations
To minimize rim slip, always use commercially available lubricants made for bead seating to assist in tire mounting. Paste type lubes are recommended because the application can be better controlled and paste type lubes will not drip onto areas that should not be lubricated. If lubricants that require dilution are used, be sure to carefully follow the lubricant manufacturer’s instructions. Under diluted mixtures will not dry soon enough, which may cause wheel slip. Over diluted mixtures will dry too fast and may hamper proper bead seating.

Suitable paste lubricants include Rema Tip-Top® Tire Universal Mounting Paste if available in your area, Kent Xtra-Seal™ Euro-Paste Mounting Compound or equivalent. The Kent product is distributed nationally. Contact 1–800–YES-KENT for additional information on this product.
Important: When mounting the tires, rubber lubricant must be used. Also, the vehicle should not be driven aggressively (hard acceleration or braking) for up to 24 hours after tire mounting to allow the lubricant to dry. Failure to do so may cause the tire to slip on the rim. This condition will affect wheel balance, which could result in a vibration.

Tire Lubrication
Lubricate the tire as shown in the following illustration. To eliminate wheel slip, the tire beads should normally only be lubricated from "heel to toe.” Lubricant applied outside the heel to toe zone will cause the tire to have reduced grip on the wheel and increase the likelihood of slippage.

Tire Bead Lubrication


Wheel Lubrication
The following diagram illustrates the recommended lubrication of the wheel to prevent wheel slip. Lubricate the safety humps. Leave the rim flanges dry. Lubricate the drop center area only for difficult to mount tires.

Wheel Lubrication Points


Customer Notice
It is advisable especially for customers who are waiting for their vehicle during servicing be made aware that recently mounted tires should not be driven on in an aggressive manner. It may take up to 24 hours before the lubricant is completely dry and tires achieve maximum adherence to the rims. No matter the style of driving exhibited during the drying period, no air loss, or other detrimental attributes are possible from this condition. Wheel slip relative to the rim is merely a customer dissatisfier due to the potential to induce undesired vibration.
Parts Information

Part Number 74 - Description*Rema Tip-Top® Tire Universal Mounting Paste 22 lb (10 kg)

Part Number KT14127 - Description *Kent Xtra-Seal™ Euro-Paste Mounting Compound 11 lb (5 kg) Available from 1–800–YES-KENT

*We believe these sources and their products to be reliable. There may be additional manufacturers of such material. General Motors does not endorse, indicate any preference for or assume any responsibility for the products from these firms or for any such items which may be available from other sources.

GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.

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Old 03-13-2014, 08:46 PM   #25
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Wow that's interesting! I wonder how many vehicles run into that issue..
Happens on my GT500, its actually common on high horsepower cars:

"While testing at the Nurburgring, SVT engineers noticed their tires were migrating around the wheels, with the front tires moving due to braking loads and the rears slipping on the rim due to acceleration. A set of serrations on the wheel was the cure. The serrations go right below the tire bead, they required a bit of development to find a height tall enough to grip the tire, but not so tall as to foster leakage."

Read more: http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...#ixzz2vtgtqdIU
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