IAT Whipple vs E-Force

[camaro692]

Originally Posted by realsquash

I challenge you to show a dyno where IAT2 was ambient+10* at 12psi. I also challenge you to show what IAT2 is after the car is hot from driving around.

Andy

+1000
Thats not gunna happen

[03ss]

Originally Posted by Whipple Charged

There is a very drastic difference in temps from different SC's, as our holds almost near ambient except at idle, when vehicle is not moving which doesn't matter. Many systems, including all our Ford Racing systems are modeled around the IAT being pre SC. Pre SC is just as important, as its doing the real adjustment for ambient changes.

I would think the IAT after the cooler would be far more more pertinent than the ambient for many reasons. If say your intercooler water pump failed and you continued to drive it hard your ECM would not be able to react in order to save your engine from catastrophic failure due to there would be no change if all you are measuring is the ambient air temp in the inlet. Since heat transfer is a function of time and flow rates how would the ECM be able to make necessary timing changes based on how saturated your intercooler is thus changing the effective efficiency and ability to reduce the discharge air temperatures. Point being if you are doing a 1st gear romp or whether you are doing a top speed run in a Texas mile or at the Bonneville salt flats you are going to have different levels of heat transfer rates over time

Originally Posted by Whipple Charged

In order to get accurate reading, you must have a grommet style IAT sensor in the proper air stream, standard screw in temp sensors are not as accurate (pickup all the heat from the engine and under hood) and most have different transfer functions. When your in this area with our twin screw, the temps very rarely change and gives almost zero tuning ability since there's almost no swing in temps. Thus, its not required to monitor post SC. The proper system, such as most factory system has an IAT 1 and IAT 2.

I have to Disagree. First of all you seem to say that the IAT sensor in the manifold offers no value and is not needed but then turn around and say the proper system is to have IAT1 and IAT2. If it was not needed why would all OEM design one in their supercharger systems (i.e. GM LS9 CORVETTE and LSA ENGINES, FORD with the GT500 and 03/04 COBRAS)? I also dont agree with the statement on the grommet vs screw IAT sensors as I have seen screw style sensors have a fast response rate as well as not be affected by the way they mount because the actual element that picks up the temperature reading is shielded as well as protruding from the from the screw part of the sensor body. (Looks like GM them selves use a screw style sensor on their LS9 supercharger system located post intercooler)

Originally Posted by Whipple Charged

Most roots systems go 30-60deg F over ambient under boost, most twin screws are at least half this. Ours, with the oversized IC and SC design stays with 10degs of ambient up to 12psi when measured in the air stream.

What sort of testing have you done with this particular system configuration to substantiate our claims? I honestly doubt this statement would hold true in all conditions especially if you were to be driving around a road course full throttle for a length of time. I believe you are failing to recognize that there is not a straight one to one relationship between Ambient air temp and TRUE IAT temp after the intercooler but rather it is more dynamic as discharge temps also are dependant on water temperature which depends on vehicle speed (air speed or cfm cooling the water) as well as engine load and RPM which relate to the engine airflow CFM rate that is passing thru the intercooler. Its not as simple as you make it out to be which is the exact reason an IAT sensor in the manifold is used in supercharged OEM applications netting a Dynamic IAT reading for the ECM to be programmed around.

Originally Posted by Whipple Charged

Tunes will be the same, no need to "re-tune". Especially if our IAT table is used as the baseline.

what sort of testing have you completed to build the IAT table you have built into your tune. Dyno, road testing, high and low altitude as well as desert heat and winter snow conditions?

Originally Posted by Whipple Charged

Can't compare a GT500 app to the Camaro app. Most GT500's run very high boost with very tight bend deep manifolds which adds heat.

Are you saying that you system for the Camaro is not designed for running higher levels of boost yet you market it as such?


I have to say your response has really disappointed me as to possibly how narrow minded and seemingly ignorant your response has come across. Kind of starts to make me wonder of the validity of some of your other marketing claims when it seems as though they are untested and unproven as this on seems to be: "Integrated design allows for oversized intercooler core compared to other smaller intercooler cores giving Whipple lower air charge temps which allows more boost and timing to be run on pump gas "

[bigsquirrel]

eh whatever, I'll have him put it in. I don't think you appreciate the size of the intercoller, pump and super charger cooling. When my ignition is on you can hear the pump running like a hot tub! I'm not surprised to hear its a few degrees off.

[03ss]

Sounds good, I dont discount that the systems cools the discharge air well but really think the true point of IAT sensor in terms of ECM calibration is being missed. Looking forward to seeing your results. So what type of IAT will you be installing (screw or grommet) and exactly where? I would recomend the fast response gm sensor as I have also seen it having a very similar calibration and response to the ones found in the factory MAF element.

[Caliman93230]

Holly monkey this is interesting
Ok whipple must have tested the discharge temps when developing the intercooler at various boost presures and engine temps, assuming they did this, now for us to be able to monitor this we need this sensor at the manifold, if the whipple kit does not have one I would like to know if one could be installed.

[SC2150]

IMHO the only way to really have an accurate reading would be to tap a sensor into the chrage as it leaves the SC unit and before it enters the cylinder head runners. This of course would need to be a temp unit separate from the IAT and NOT used for tuning, just to measure the effectivness of the intercooler design.
Now take ANY of these and add the Super Chiller and it won't matter.

I have the utmost respect for each of these manufacturers as I have installed all with great results. Just different designs with pros & cons for all.

[STS_CHILLER]

Originally Posted by blufin

Does anyone have IAT numbers for each unit, on a stock set up? I have narrowed my choices down to these two, and I want to know which is going to run cooler in the hot South Florida heat. I am happy with both units as far as performance.
Somewhere down the road, I plan on maybe running meth for insurance, or the Super Chiller.

Have you looked at Harrop? Personally I like the E Force from pics. I’m looking forward to Super Chiller my first E Force on a C6 as soon as he gets it in here!

I agree with SC2150 the IAT sensor is misleading. You can run more timing with a Super Chiller at same IAT reading. I don’t know why but in practice you can see it on Dyno. So air charge is lower temp than reported. That’s even with a fast Omega Sensor

[STS_CHILLER]

Originally Posted by blufin

Somewhere down the road, I plan on maybe running meth for insurance, or the Super Chiller.

Heck don’t wait bring it in now, you’re what 4-5 hours away? Reserve the Condo and bring the family. Then when you fire up that Whipple you will be good to go. It won’t make any difference doing Super Chiller first and driving car except you won’t have to run water lines twice. I’m sorry I didn’t mean to turn this into a commercial but we can install the blower to and tune.

[Bad Dad]

Ive been working on a supercharger choice myself depending on what you read or what tech aspect you find torq vs hp under or over the curve it seems to come down to Roots VS Screw i live in SW FLORIDA HOT and HUMID. After a ride last night to Hurricane Wings for some wings and cold brew with the family in the truck we saw a 34 ford blown cp flamed candy apple red turning into a shopping center here in Naples FL. We tailed him for a look. Turns out to be a local Sat, nite meeting of local rides, to look compare and talk perfomance. WOW to my supprise Whipple was the SC of choice I have never SC a car before but im close to pullin the trigger and enjoy doin the work myself. I have been using Ted at JRE for parts and tech / tune support. Looks like a Whipple 2010 Camaro kit will be my choice also will do JRE rearend mod with 4:10 gear and clutch upgrade,, OPEN FOR OPINIONS I have ARH headers high flow cats, Borla Stinger exhaust. Halltech CAI, Oil catch can, MGW shifter, 160* T Stat, JRE SCT TUNED....

[STS_CHILLER]

One more thing to consider Whipple is much louder isn’t it? The only one I have seen was just too loud inside car for me. I know I know most like the sound of screws

[Bad Dad]

Originally Posted by STS_CHILLER

One more thing to consider Whipple is much louder isn’t it? The only one I have seen was just too loud inside car for me. I know I know most like the sound of screws

I PUT MY MONEY IN ENGINE AND EXHAUST NOISE THE STEREO IS FOR IM NOT SURE OK MY I POD

[Sack Rat 2SS]

The only way to compare apples to apples is to compare blower inlet temp to blower exit temp at a fixed boost level. Then compare intercooler inlet temp and pressure to intercooler exit temp and pressure to determine efficiency of intercooler. Now you have the complete breakdown to truly compare. My 2 cents.

[03ss]

Originally Posted by bigsquirrel

eh whatever, I'll have him put it in. I don't think you appreciate the size of the intercoller, pump and super charger cooling. When my ignition is on you can hear the pump running like a hot tub! I'm not surprised to hear its a few degrees off.

Any update ? Please post pics of where you install the sensor along with before and after logs of moving the iat sensor pickup. I assume you will do back to back logs right? I don't suppose you will be running the 12 psi to prove the no more than 10 deg F from ambient claim? Awaiting results!!

[Total_Perf_Eng]

If the IAT sensor is still in the MAF, then that explains why the IAT's are soooo low. The blower (meaning any blower that runs like this) could be putting out 400* temps, and the IAT's wont change. From a tuning standpoint, that is wrong. You MUST work with "Actual" numbers.

First things first.... From a tuning standpoint, "Knowing" your true IAT's is CRITICAL. I dont mean just any IAT, I mean the IAT's right before they enter your motor. These temps play a significant part on tuning. A change in air temp, is a change in air density. A change in density, is a change in power output.

IAT is a very important factor in tuning. Not only is it a direct corrilation to A/F ratio, but it also is one of the key factors in pre ignition, detonation, and the amount of timing that can be ran, just to name a few.

If you are driving your car not properly tuned for IAT changes, you can very easily grenade your motor.

In tuning software, youve got a VERY VERY important field. It is IAT vs Spark. When your IAT's start to climb, you need to pull the proper amount of timing in order to lessen that chances of detonation. For instance, if you are running around at 100* IAT's, you may be commanding -0 degrees of timing. This means you are running off of your main spark table, with 0 degrees of timing being removed for Intake temps. Now, lets say you decide to mash the gas on the freeway, and run all the way to redline. Your IAT's can jump in excess of 60-90* by the end of the run. When this happens, it is critical that you pull the proper amount of timing. If you dont, you will start to detonate. Detonation causes massive pressure spikes in your cylinder. If you have boost, it multiplies that many times over. This is why you can easily crack a piston, or blow a head gasket.

Now, say you think to yourself, "Well, Ive ran my car, and it doesnt knock at WOT". The only way they can do this, is if they dont add the proper amount of timing in the main table to begin with. So instead of you running around with say 16* of timing, your running around with 12. Sure, your car wont knock when your at WOT (Wide Open Throttle), but you have now tuned your car for the 1% of your driving, and the other 99% you are leaving a ton of power on the table. My point is, is there are adders and subtracters that run along side of the main table. If your coolant temp is lower, then your car will add a couple of degrees. If its hotter, it takes it away. Same with IAT's, as well as a few others.

But now, on the flip side of the coin, IMHO, the general public worries wayyy to much about what their IAT's are while running around. Ever since the tuning software companies gave us the ability to view this stuff, it causes everyone to freak out when they see high numbers. Is it needed for tuning? yes.. Does it really matter if your look at it after the fact? No.

IF, your car is tuned properly, high IAT's dont hurt your car one bit. Mustangs see 200-250* temps every day of the week. The new ZR1 and blown CTS-V see 200* temps all the time. Factory blown cars have been seeing 150-200* temps for many many years now. Yes, it hurts power. Yes, when your heatsoaked you loose power. But as soon as you cool back down after a run, your car adds the timing back in, and your back up to your original power.

I always say, get the blower that is going to suit your greatest percentege of driving. Dont just pick the blower based on IAT's. But if you are really stuck on that, then dont get a top mount at all. Go with a centrifugal. 99.999% of the time, a centri is going to have lower IAT's.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to explain it. Wayyyy to many people buy based on false information. IF that blower is running "Pre-Blower" IAT sensor, then I would suggest you re-tap the sensor into the manifold. Just like EVERY other top mount blower company out there. Both Maggie and KB run their IAT sensors in the lower manifold. Where its supposed to be.. Same with General Motors.

I have attached 2 pics. The one pic shows the Spark vs IAT table (2010 Maggie LS3 Camaro). Where ever you see a - before the number, this means the computer is REMOVING timing from the main table. If you see just a number, then it is ADDING. This spark table is off of a Maggie Camaro we tested a couple of weeks ago. I dont know if it is the original file or not, as I didnt tune it. Well, we re-tuned it, but im referring to this particular scan prior to our tuning.

The other pic is from a Maggie Corvette I was scanning right before I started tuning. Its really hard to see, but its the 3rd section down from the top, and the last line in that section. You will see how it gradually increases as I go from the beginning of the run, to the end. It is a perfect example of what your IAT's do, when you mash the gas. This is precisely why you dont want to run your sensor before the blower. We went from 90* to 138* at 4300 rpm's.

Hope this Looooooong post helps someone.

Originally Posted by GMRULZ

There is no relocation in the Whipple kit. They reuse the stock air box albiet modified and the stock MAF which of course incorporates the IAT. Mine is still in my ADM box.