Best Tuner Programmer?

[NickJRE]

Originally Posted by overhaulengines

something like this Ted?, will this plug directly into the scanner? does this kit includes everything minus the SCT?
http://www.aemelectronics.com/wideba...-gauge-kit-745

lupe

That's the one. You also need a cable which we stock here to connect the Wideband to the SCT X3.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by overhaulengines

something like this Ted?, will this plug directly into the scanner? does this kit includes everything minus the SCT?
http://www.aemelectronics.com/wideba...-gauge-kit-745

lupe

That is the one, We are adjusting our pricing to match AEM they had another price drop I see, Wish they would tell Us LOL.

[Bell040]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Hello Bell040, I can Assure you I Don't Take Guesses, Every Adjustment I make comes from DATA and EXPERIENCE, NOT GUESSES.

I have such a Massive Data base of Info for Every Aftermarket part and combination there of, that I KNOW What needs to be done to Tune these cars Properly.

For any Combinations that are other than Simple Bolt ons, I Always require Data logging of street driving, then when that is finished, I require Either Logging of AFR at WOT with a Wide band or Visiting a Dyno and Measuring AFR on the Dyno to Finish the Tune.

It Is Rare that I have to make more than 2 Changes to the Tune with my Data and Experience.

Thank You, for your Input, it is good to see what individual opinions are so they can be addressed accurately, and put the doubt to rest.

Ted.

I was wrong to assume that the mail order guys were not checking thier AFR. I guess I wanted to stress the importance of AFR because I am sure that there are plenty of people that do not check it when they are doing a mail order tune.

.... Myself being one of those... until I got a wild hair and decided to order a wideband from you (Innovative's LC-1) because I was curious.

So I would just advise getting a wideband sensor and AFR gauge when you are getting the SCT and logging AFR along with the standard stuff. You will probably need to add a new O2 port in the exhaust (some headers come with a second port).

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Bell040

I was wrong to assume that the mail order guys were not checking thier AFR. I guess I wanted to stress the importance of AFR because I am sure that there are plenty of people that do not check it when they are doing a mail order tune.

.... Myself being one of those... until I got a wild hair and decided to order a wideband from you (Innovative's LC-1) because I was curious.

So I would just advise getting a wideband sensor and AFR gauge when you are getting the SCT and logging AFR along with the standard stuff. You will probably need to add a new O2 port in the exhaust (some headers come with a second port).

My tuner swapped sensors in mine. So I should be good to go right?

[NickJRE]

Originally Posted by Bell040

I was wrong to assume that the mail order guys were not checking thier AFR. I guess I wanted to stress the importance of AFR because I am sure that there are plenty of people that do not check it when they are doing a mail order tune.

.... Myself being one of those... until I got a wild hair and decided to order a wideband from you (Innovative's LC-1) because I was curious.

So I would just advise getting a wideband sensor and AFR gauge when you are getting the SCT and logging AFR along with the standard stuff. You will probably need to add a new O2 port in the exhaust (some headers come with a second port).

I think you brought up a very very good point. It is something everyone should be aware of.

Adding an additional 02 sensor before the cats is the best way to do it for sure.

[Bell040]

Originally Posted by PQ

My tuner swapped sensors in mine. So I should be good to go right?

yup, you probably have a dyno sheet that shows your AFR on the bottom. It should be 12-12.5... Maybe even 11.5.

not 9.8 like mine

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Bell040

yup, you probably have a dyno sheet that shows your AFR on the bottom. It should be 12-12.5... Maybe even 11.5.

not 9.8 like mine

When my car was stock I put it on a dyno and had an AFR reading on bottom but it was always reading funny. Is that due to stock sensors?

And I bet your exhaust tips look great most of the time. LOL

[Bell040]

Originally Posted by PQ

When my car was stock I put it on a dyno and had an AFR reading on bottom but it was always reading funny. Is that due to stock sensors?

And I bet your exhaust tips look great most of the time. LOL

The stock sensors don't really read AFR. They are "narrowband" sensors (they read from like 14.0 to 15.2). They are no good for measuring AFR at WOT because at WOT the engine changes control modes... from closed loop to open loop (or vice versa), and the AFR is set by directly changing the amount of fuel by looking in a table for the correct fuel flow rate ... using RPM and intake manifold pressure measurements. Think of an excel table with RPM as the columns and manifold pressure (kPa) as the rows... the numbers in the cells are the amount of fuel to add to make AFR=12.5 (or whatever GM wants the AFR to be).

In other words, it assumes that the AFR is correct because GM calibrated it to be correct using the tables... at WOT it doesn't try to measure AFR with the stock O2 sensors and make adjustments like you might think.

Tuning the AFR is really just changing the numbers in the table. If you want to change it to a new AFR, or if you added a bunch of mods that changed the AFR... you have to change the numbers in the RPM vs. airflow table. Then you make a dyno run and measure AFR with the WB O2. If you are too rich or lean you have to correct it and try it again.

like so... (stole this from a Honda site )




Most tuners are good enough with the table to get it pretty close the first time, but if not... and you dont meausre it, you will be out of calibration and running too rich or too lean, hopefully not the latter. There are also a few other tables that are recalibrated (injector timing, temperature compensation, etc.). Correct tuning is not a simple process and tuners dont try to change every value in all the tables based on measurements... some of the magic number changing is based on experience, which I do not have.

I am not a tuner, but I did a bunch of research when I was going to get HPTuners and do it myself (still don't know if I will). Therefore, some of my statements may need to be corrected by a real tuner.


and yes, my exhaust tips are nice and black

[PQ]

Actually I didnt' mean AFR, but the O2 reading, whatever they call it. Mine was really lean on my first dyno I did back in 2009. But it did read the lean-ness.

I put a 3 Bar Sensor on the blower when I installed it for the intske mixture or whatever, but my tuner did the rest. I assume he changed the sensors because I had to go to the parts store and get him 2 replecements for his inventory.

[Bell040]

Originally Posted by PQ

Actually I didnt' mean AFR, but the O2 reading, whatever they call it. Mine was really lean on my first dyno I did back in 2009. But it did read the lean-ness.

I put a 3 Bar Sensor on the blower when I installed it for the intske mixture or whatever, but my tuner did the rest. I assume he changed the sensors because I had to go to the parts store and get him 2 replecements for his inventory.

the O2 sensor is in the exhaust stream, its reading is the AFR (air-to-fuel ratio).

Lean = high AFR
Rich = low AFR

A "3 Bar" sensor reads "manifold absolute pressure" (MAP), or "boost" in a supercharged engine. It won't read "lean" or "rich" because it isn't a fuel mixture reading... its just reading the pressure of the air before it goes into the cylinders.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Bell040

the O2 sensor is in the exhaust stream, its reading is the AFR (air-to-fuel ratio).

Lean = high AFR
Rich = low AFR

A "3 Bar" sensor reads "manifold absolute pressure" (MAP), or "boost" in a supercharged engine. It won't read "lean" or "rich" because it isn't a fuel mixture reading... its just reading the pressure of the air before it goes into the cylinders.

I guess what I'm getting at is that when I dynoed it stock, it had the lean/rich line at the bottom. Read really rich because it was before the fuse pull. Car was a pig back then which is why I had it on the dyno, but I remember it kept dropping off the map about half way through the pull. I wonder if it's because of the stock sensors?

Found them.......

[Bell040]

yup, those AFR measurements were measured with a WB O2 in the exhaust (probably drivers side) and they are pretty nasty curves. That tune was all wrong . I hope the new tune with the SC is a flat line at 11.5 to 12.5 through the RPM range like most everyone elses.

It looks like these were pulls that were made during the tuning process. I am sure that he eventually got it to land on the dashed line when he was done (by changing the RPM/MAP tables). At least AFR wasn't lean (>14) at high RPM... that would be a disaster waiting to happen.

This is exactly why you need a WB O2 if you are going to "mail order" tune. Just imagine if that crooked AFR line was the inverse of yours and you didn't know it. You would be ~15 AFR at 6000 RPM . Do a quick google search of "lean AFR at WOT disaster"... It will wake you up about neglecting the AFR. I think the pistons get hot and you burn up your rings...... yes, ouch.


WB O2 sensors and guages aren't cheap ($300-400)... but worth it IMO if you are not running a stock engine calibration. It's cool to watch it when you are decelerating and DFCO is active.... It goes so lean the WB gauge cant read it (>20)... then the exhaust popping/gurgling starts. AFR is pretty noisy at cuising speeds (14 to 15.5) and the numbers don't mean much, but at WOT it gets very still at the target AFR through the RPMs if it is tuned right.

[tom692010]

Originally Posted by ilovehooters1385

the general consensus on handheld tuners is they are a waste of money..

sorry about your luck at first i wanted one also but after ready 203,586,394,492 ppl saying they suck it kinda shyed me away from them

Well your consensus didn't include me. I have the Predator and I love it. 4 threads out of probably several hundreds of them out there and your sold against them. Man your easy to convince on things. I'd be hesitant to listen to someone so easily swayed.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Bell040

yup, those AFR measurements were measured with a WB O2 in the exhaust (probably drivers side) and they are pretty nasty curves. That tune was all wrong . I hope the new tune with the SC is a flat line at 11.5 to 12.5 through the RPM range like most everyone elses.

That was the stock tune before the fuse pull.

No adjustments were made at that time. The car was a month old.