THE METH INJECTION Q&A FROM AN OLD GUY

[RupertPupkin]

How can you tune a system where it’s still safe if you run out of meth?

[dreksnot]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

If your only goal is lowering IAT then Distilled Water is your best option because it has ability to absorb heat and will not affect the fueling, but will take more timing or more boost.
Ted.

Yes, lowering IAT is only goal. Looking at options, what would you recommend, as starters, for a single nozzle size in g/hr or ml/min for DI water? Shooting for 1,200rwhp and have a progressive controller.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by RupertPupkin

How can you tune a system where it’s still safe if you run out of meth?

Honestly there is none in most cases.

Fail safes typically don't work out, stuff happens in milliseconds inside an engine at high power.

The only advice I can offer is this.

First Make sure you have enough fuel system, injectors and octane to support your build and fine tune it on that set up.

Then you can use it as a cooling aid/octane adder, jet it and adjust the turn on point, and on pressure, ramp rate and pressure to maintain a .3-.5 richer lambda.

Remember you are now pissing on the fire.

You will have to add timing to gain back the power you will lose but I would recommend only adding as much as you need to even out the power you had without it.

This way the knock sensors have a chance of protecting the engine.

Do not desensitize or limit what the knock sensors are able to take out for timing, many tuners do this and I totally disagree with it.

Ted.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by dreksnot

Yes, lowering IAT is only goal. Looking at options, what would you recommend, as starters, for a single nozzle size in g/hr or ml/min for DI water? Shooting for 1,200rwhp and have a progressive controller.

I would suggest you consult with our WM system manufacturer for start up settings.

There are far to many variables for me to make a recommendation.

Then following the instructions above, logging and adjusting to achieve best results.

Ted.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Something else I would like to add regarding the air intake sensor as a fail safe or for monitoring actual IAT.

I see so many people install the Air temp sensor right after the meth nozzle or just on the other side of the TB in the entry of the intake.

That placement in my opinion is too close and will not give real data.

The Sensor should be placed in the rear most portion of the intake and never make contact with any liquid.

It is an Air temp sensor and should not be used as a liquid sensor.

By being place in the rearmost portion of the intake furthest from the meth nozzle you will get real IAT readings that are entering the intake ports.

To many are bragging about how low thier IAT is after install WM with the sensor in the path of liquid.

Plus Depending on the tune may be falsely adding timing which can be catastrophic.

[RupertPupkin]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Honestly there is none in most cases.

Fail safes typically don't work out, stuff happens in milliseconds inside an engine at high power.

The only advice I can offer is this.

First Make sure you have enough fuel system, injectors and octane to support your build and fine tune it on that set up.

Then you can use it as a cooling aid/octane adder, jet it and adjust the turn on point, and on pressure, ramp rate and pressure to maintain a .3-.5 richer lambda.

Remember you are now pissing on the fire.

You will have to add timing to gain back the power you will lose but I would recommend only adding as much as you need to even out the power you had without it.

This way the knock sensors have a chance of protecting the engine.

Do not desensitize or limit what the knock sensors are able to take out for timing, many tuners do this and I totally disagree with it.

Ted.

Too much work....lol.... I guess e85 it is.

[Greenhornet2]

I was considering it. As I was watching my car on the dyno I saw it puff black smoke a few times above 5500rpm. I believe this tells me it dumped fuel and pulled timing because it sensed knock which scares me. I only run 93, there's no E85 around here and I don't have the fuel system for E85 anyway. This was just at a dyno day for a 1 pull, nothing hooked up other than a tailpipe sniffer, which was also showing 12.5-13:1 A/F. Been having an internal battle on what to do. Cam is going in and I'll be back for dynotuning after that. I just want it as safe as possible.

[RupertPupkin]

Originally Posted by Greenhornet2

I was considering it. As I was watching my car on the dyno I saw it puff black smoke a few times above 5500rpm. I believe this tells me it dumped fuel and pulled timing because it sensed knock which scares me. I only run 93, there's no E85 around here and I don't have the fuel system for E85 anyway. This was just at a dyno day for a 1 pull, nothing hooked up other than a tailpipe sniffer, which was also showing 12.5-13:1 A/F. Been having an internal battle on what to do. Cam is going in and I'll be back for dynotuning after that. I just want it as safe as possible.

Deff makes ur butthole pucker up.... lol. Too many variables with running meth for me. Knowing myself, I’d probably forget to put liquid in the tank. :/

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Greenhornet2

I was considering it. As I was watching my car on the dyno I saw it puff black smoke a few times above 5500rpm. I believe this tells me it dumped fuel and pulled timing because it sensed knock which scares me. I only run 93, there's no E85 around here and I don't have the fuel system for E85 anyway. This was just at a dyno day for a 1 pull, nothing hooked up other than a tailpipe sniffer, which was also showing 12.5-13:1 A/F. Been having an internal battle on what to do. Cam is going in and I'll be back for dynotuning after that. I just want it as safe as possible.

Well... Never trust a tail pipe sensor.

Supercharged LS should be .78 lambda and fuel, which equates to 11.49 AFR based on pure gasoline, that is where I tune them.

Be happy to discuss a plan going forward for you give me a call.

Ted

[Greenhornet2]

Yea i didn't trust the tailpipe sniffer i won't get into that. Ted are you there on Saturdays? I think i'll be bringing my headers down saturday for ceramic coating. Maybe we can talk then.

[dreksnot]

Yup - logging lambda (like AFR) Blue track is a tailpipe sniffer and the Red is from data logging the wideband on the car with HPTuners (vertical axis is lambda and horizontal is RPMs). There is a definite lag between end of tailpipe and where the WB is located (where cats are). Who ya gonna trust?

[Slowhawk]

I value the opinion Ted has on this subject. 14 years ago I was standing in the same spot. Would not run WM kit's on anything seeing all the failures in the early kits.
Then I changed, started doing some high hp builds and running race gas was not an option.
We started using Alky kits. 100% meth. Been so for over 10 years. Not turning timing up 4-6 degree's more, just tuning A/F after with a simple IAT sensor safety. Running cars 800+ rwhp on simple pump gas is a norm now a days.
In 2013 my personal high 7 second car ran 93+ meth for a whole season of X275 racing. (427 LS/88mm) 80+ 1/8 mile passes, motor never taken apart all year. Came in 2nd that year.
That being said. In those years I've done easily 300 cars. Not 1 hurt motor yet. That being the reason I have no problem advising a meth system to customers and stand behind it.

Mind you this isn't to start a war. Just my honest opinion from what I've seen personally.

[Greenhornet2]

Exactly why I am torn. Both reputable guys about an hour from me with pretty different views and ways to tune for meth. lol. Shit

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Greenhornet2

Yea i didn't trust the tailpipe sniffer i won't get into that. Ted are you there on Saturdays? I think i'll be bringing my headers down saturday for ceramic coating. Maybe we can talk then.

I expect to be here Sat the store is open every sat 8-12