[ZLRob]

Originally Posted by RobZL1

If you're just driving it on the street, change the tires to Michelin or Conti's. Will be MUCH better for street temps. Good street tires + stabilitrak and traction control = hard to lose it.

Right. I run PS4'S and while it does get loose whenever I give it some hammer, it has become predictable and controllable power to me now and the traction control definitely keeps it in check as well. Maybe they aren't the absolute best out there for grip compared to something like say the R888R, but they definitely are an excellent street tire that are more versatile for the type of duty the street throws at you. Most definitely better than Conti's.

[Gunkk]

Originally Posted by Standard

Does stabilitrak protect from this even if traction control is turned off?

Yes.

TC helps keep the rear tires from spinning when going forward (rear tires breaking loose and rotating vs. ground). Works well in a straight line.

Stabilitrak helps keep the whole car from spinning (yaw control) when TC is insufficient at keeping the car stable around corners.

Both systems will take over the throttle and braking (ABS) to do what they think they need do. But each uses various inputs and ouputs a bit differently based on circumstances (TC typically doesn't use the yaw sensor, for example).

- I would like to know if a stock ZL1's 'safeties' protect from going into a spin pedal down driving in a straight line, or if nothing being absolute, somehow quantify the protection or recovery afforded a driver who gets off the gas once spin starts. Also, if the car would take the power off and protect a driver even who stays *on* the gas (presuming leaving stabilitrak nannies fully on).

A ZL1 makes full torque around 3-4k RPM. This is easily achievable during a hard launch in 1st gear at a stoplight before you get across the intersection.

Cold stock tires *will* break loose at 650 ft-lbs.

Stabilitrak will usually prevent a car from rotating (yaw control) during turning while on the throttle on dry pavement. You'll notice a severe power cut when the back end starts to break loose. It happens so quickly at 650ft-lbs you realize that you would otherwise lose control of the car and spin without it. Will it keep you from wrecking your car? No. But it will pull back hard on the reigns when it kicks in.

- I would like to know how suspension modes impact this - Tour, Sport, Track

Suspension mode affects Stabilitrak very, very little. ENGINE MODE (not suspension mode) affects this much more. Sport will let the tires break loose a little (delays onset of TC and reduces effect of TC). Tour and Track will not.

- does the inability of the rear of the car to sink down a bit on acceleration in stiffer modes make this worse?

Not enough to matter on the street compared to engine mode or tire temp. Many drag strip folks like tour mode to allow a little more weight transfer to the rear to help with 60ft times.

I find myself adjusting suspension much more for road conditions than for performance... but when I drive my car I'm rarely over 6/10ths effort.

Trying to go 10/10ths is dangerous at 650ft-lbs... no way you want to try that on the street. Street conditions are no where near safe enough and speed limits are easily passed in seconds.

- At higher RPM when getting off the gas is basically braking the car, does getting completely off the gas in this situation make it *worse* just making the sideways-moving rears now float over the road? So should you dial back the gas and hold it at some midpoint?

Modulated throttle inputs (slower throttle position changes) are almost always better than binary throttle inputs (WOT or nothing).

- My questions pertain to safety during straight line acceleration - I figure they partially translate; but I respect that corners have so much more to it that I'm not asking that here now.

Respect the 650ft-lbs, or it will kill you and others. Especially on stock ZL1 tires ... and when wet or cold they can be rather dangerous even at mild throttle inputs.

If you want to learn the car and its limits, pay a professional instructor for a driver mod (i.e. driving class) at a local track. And don't forget your track insurance.

A cars n coffee is perhaps the single worst place to test your and the car's limits.

[LT4Greg]

Have respect for the hp under the hood and learn to control your right foot until you get adjusted to the car and yes even with traction control on, the car can get loose and swing around if you are driving aggressively!

[laynlo15]

Originally Posted by Standard

Below is a video. I'm not trying to go into the weeds (ugh - and with a pun) on the crowd's behavior; also not to pick on the driver or the Viper; but that without electronic safeties Vipers and lower weight, tend to provide purer examples of high-horsepower loss of control (this car model has side exhaust, it's got no electronics). The video shows a couple of times, zooming in a bit. Different commenters have said he did, and didn't, get off the gas, even in slow-mo I'm not sure; but I'm guessing once it came loose and went into a turn it stopped mattering.

My recent experience with power is with a 2010 SS M6 since it was first built. It's pretty powerful, I figure I learned its behavior. I now have a non-1LE ZL1 manual still ostensibly in breakin; but in certain lapses of judgement of varying degree I've felt it want to come loose at the back.

How can I understand the nature of this, and how it relates to the electronics? I'm guessing Stabilitrak is the defense from this, like with the Gen5s? Can it outright prevent this? Does stabilitrak protect from this even if traction control is turned off?

- I get *generally* the physics of all of it and generally what these safety tools do; but would love to hear from someone with a better mental model for it.

- I would like to know if a stock ZL1's 'safeties' protect from going into a spin pedal down driving in a straight line, or if nothing being absolute, somehow quantify the protection or recovery afforded a driver who gets off the gas once spin starts. Also, if the car would take the power off and protect a driver even who stays *on* the gas (presuming leaving stabilitrak nannies fully on).

- I would like to know how suspension modes impact this - Tour, Sport, Track - does the inability of the rear of the car to sink down a bit on acceleration in stiffer modes make this worse?

- At higher RPM when getting off the gas is basically braking the car, does getting completely off the gas in this situation make it *worse* just making the sideways-moving rears now float over the road? So should you dial back the gas and hold it at some midpoint?

- My questions pertain to safety during straight line acceleration - I figure they partially translate; but I respect that corners have so much more to it that I'm not asking that here now.

Anyhow, the Viper video:






Thanks,
Matt

Back in the mid 90s and early 2000s the Viper was the most crashed performance car on the market. No Traction control or abs brakes made it a beast to handle and the big number of crashed Vipers proved that. It was a no frills 500 hp ditch to ditch killer in some cases.

[ZLRob]

Originally Posted by LT4Greg

Have respect for the hp under the hood and learn to control your right foot until you get adjusted to the car and yes even with traction control on, the car can get loose and swing around if you are driving aggressively!

The guy in the video looks young and only further solidifies my thought with young folks not needing such a high HP beast due to their tendency to have such a lack of respect for all the power available on tap, but as usual, money always talks.

[Vigilante375]

As said, you should go take some advanced driver courses if you're uncertain on the level of power this car has. We all need to learn at some point rather than question the abilities of the vehicle your driving/riding.

I was a young and dumb 19 year old back in 2004 when I bought my very first motorcycle, a 2004 Yamaha R1. That was way before traction/wheelie control and even though I grew up riding 4 wheelers, I still understood the limit I should should push myself on that bike.

Yes, in the beginning I would test the limit of the bike from time to time and I was fully aware with what I was about to do and needing to react to bring the front end down or ease into the throttle more when coming out of a turn to not high side or not lean over too much to low side, etc.

I crashed (low sided) it after about 10k miles of riding by going too hot into a turn. Luckily, it was easily repairable by myself and I learned from it. Here I am 3 bikes later and nearly 20 years later with no accidents. Lots of close calls with idiots in cars not paying attention.

Your driving/riding still takes priority over the nannies in a car. Some say it's a 50/50 of skill/nannies but I say it's more of a 60-70/40-30 mix depending on the vehicle your driving/riding.

[Standard]

Any thread in a forum like this (especially for a discontinued car) is there for posterity - maybe someone searching for "stabilitrak" or "traction control" or (if it's truly become the vernacular) "nannies" and finds something to enhance the safe enjoyment of Camaro-ing.

[Standard]

I opened this to speak to the car/control/physics problem not the rest of the video; but as it's come up - the reaction of the crowd was just really wrong. While it was decades ago, in a local F-body club I just remember the extreme helpful camaraderie, though I realize C&C isn't a club or based around some common vehicle. Now, there were plenty of people doing foolish things and even coming to grief; but while others would express warnings and disapproval were trying to be constructive.

I do remember being around wider car meets that were generally positive (okay, people would go off in groups to street race too, though I mean from the way people related to eachother).

We've all had accidents or at least close calls that rattled your nerves. The kid(s) in the car have very little sense (I say that authoritatively as they're under 20, I don't remember doing any thinking at that age) and have just gone through a scary traumatic event upon which is piled fear/shame/worry around the aftermath, and there are people around laughing, jeering, and ghoulishly (conspicuously) taking photos - nothing came of it; but even at best it's just really. . . 'mean'.

While in the video we only see the jeering, that speaks to a certain level of. . . 'tension', which I expect would also entail rudeness and posing in other areas. Seeing the cars would be awesome; but the human part of the meetup. . . not so much.

[Standard]

In this video the author presents a model for oversteer and traction. At about 5 minutes 30 seconds he has a 'driving straight line' case, though to have it come out on him his case involves a wet road. Later cases show taking control of the steering but then having to realign the wheel again when the car, straightening out from the initial recovery, yaws into the other direction.

[JBones81]

Yep, these cars can get away from you. When mine was bone stock, a GT pulled up next to me. I knew I couldnt mash it off the line, but on green I rolled into it and then at about 20mph I put the pedal down. The car instantly shot right and I had to steer to get it back straight. The GT was gone. After that, I upgraded the rear suspension and now the car feels a lot more stable under hard throttle, but I'm still very cautious. The RS3 and Tesla have spoiled me. They're so easy to drive fast. You can literally floor it at any speed in any situation (other than snow, maybe, idk - we dont get snow here) and the car instantly shoots straight forward. Some say that makes them boring, but as I get older, I do appreciate safety and predictability.

So, I enjoy the ZL1 for all the other things it is - looks and sounds great, still has plenty of power even when you're not fully on it. Handles and brakes well, etc etc. BUT, I do not take it out on public roads to thrash it. I'm not confident enough in my ability or the unpredictability of roads/situations. At the end of the day, getting the car back into the garage safely is most important.

[taylorforschool@gmail.com]

Originally Posted by JBones81

Yep, these cars can get away from you. When mine was bone stock, a GT pulled up next to me. I knew I couldnt mash it off the line, but on green I rolled into it and then at about 20mph I put the pedal down. The car instantly shot right and I had to steer to get it back straight. The GT was gone. After that, I upgraded the rear suspension and now the car feels a lot more stable under hard throttle, but I'm still very cautious. The RS3 and Tesla have spoiled me. They're so easy to drive fast. You can literally floor it at any speed in any situation (other than snow, maybe, idk - we dont get snow here) and the car instantly shoots straight forward. Some say that makes them boring, but as I get older, I do appreciate safety and predictability.

So, I enjoy the ZL1 for all the other things it is - looks and sounds great, still has plenty of power even when you're not fully on it. Handles and brakes well, etc etc. BUT, I do not take it out on public roads to thrash it. I'm not confident enough in my ability or the unpredictability of roads/situations. At the end of the day, getting the car back into the garage safely is most important.

+1million

[1wraith76]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

As stated, you can have the most sophisticated traction management in the world but if YOU can't understand the limits of the vehicle then those nannies aren't going to help you.

Cold truth is that if you are afraid of the power (seeing as you made this post) then you need to get a much less powerful car until can learn how to properly control the car with or without the nannies.

Agreed. Nannies off shifting into 4th traction breaks loose sometimes at about 100 mph as I have 821 hp and 750 tq to the wheels. It always scares me a little bit when it happens but i learned to control it vs hit a wall or end up in the sand. I have tow hooks and a roll bar. My plan is to be good enough not to need them. Practice, practice, practice. I have a coach also.