Electric Vehicles

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

Yes. Thank you. " a focus on minimal inventory" sounds more like it. Just sayin' they won't have dozens on a dealer lot unsold.

On another note, EVs as rentals in large numbers hasn't worked out? Avis or one of the biggies have had a bad experience already for whatever reason.

I think Avis had 3 problems:
Problem 1: They went in way too heavy on volume and stood on the table and yelled “We have EV rentals!! Y’all come get ‘em”. Other rentals bought a few and more quietly let renters know “ if you want to rent an EV we have them.” It was a logical position for Avis to take, given all the hype, but it clearly didn’t work for them. Too soon.

Problem 2: I’m hearing that they assumed “reduced maintenance requirements” was pretty close to “no maintenance requirements” and didn’t account for different maintenance requirements. So when it came to dealing with customer damage to vehicles, they were not ready for the prices of and delivery time problems with EV manufacturers, Tesla in particular. It took too long to get replacement parts that cost too much.

Problem 3: Arguably Avis’ biggest problem. Most rental car companies make more on the resale of vehicles than they do on the actual rental. Avis bought most of their Teslas when Tesla was commanding high prices. Then Tesla started erratically playing around with their pricing. So the prices of new Teslas actually dropped to and even below the pricing Avis expected to get selling their used Teslas for, pretty much crushing their intent to capture the used Teslas market. So they were under water on their purchase. They decided to cut their losses rather than wait for prices to recover. Even so, my understanding is they sold less than 20% of their Tesla fleet. But the fact that they did it all at once triggered alarms. And since then they have been buying Teslas to replace the ones that they cycle through on a more regular basis.

[Capricio]

https://www.torquenews.com/1083/evid...ailing-america

Why Are EV Trucks Failing?
One reason that EV trucks are failing in America is cost and consumer price. The average transaction price of a full-size pickup truck in America in October was under $66K, according to KBB/Cox Automotive. Don’t confuse that with the starting price. The base model Ford and Chevy pickups start at under $40K. $66K is what consumers are paying for a well-equipped, full-size pickup truck. The least expensive Ford F-150 Lightning starts at $65K. That’s over 50% more than the least expensive fuel-powered pickup of the same size. Chevrolet’s Silverado EV starts at $75K, almost double what the gas-powered Silverado starts at.

EV Pickup Trucks - Can They Ever Succeed?
In the market since 2021, battery-electric pickup trucks remain extremely low in volume and extremely high in price. Manufacturers of battery-electric pickups have gone bankrupt, shifted away from making them, and the world leader in trucks, Ford, has stopped production of its battery-electric pickup truck. The manufacturer who has been producing EV pickup trucks the longest is losing over $39,000 per vehicle it delivers. Is there a reasonable expectation that battery-electric pickup trucks will become higher in volume and more successful in the American market going forward? Feel free to tell us in the comments below.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

There are markets for EV's and there are markets completely unsuitable for EV's. Guess which one pickup trucks falls into.

It really goes no further than common sense.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

There are markets for EV's and there are markets completely unsuitable for EV's. Guess which one pickup trucks falls into.

It really goes no further than common sense.

True for the most part, but keep an eye on the Ramcharger. It has the potential to be a game changer.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

There are markets for EV's and there are markets completely unsuitable for EV's. Guess which one pickup trucks falls into.

It really goes no further than common sense.

Is an EV truck really unsuitable when most are just grocery getters and lifestyle vehicles?

Sure for those that tow and haul, yeah EV truck is unsuitable given current tech, etc.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Is an EV truck really unsuitable when most are just grocery getters and lifestyle vehicles?

Sure for those that tow and haul, yeah EV truck is unsuitable given current tech, etc.

I agree that they are not unsuitable for the guy using it for the occassional trip to Home Depot. But that guy is generally not interested in EV's to begin with.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

True for the most part, but keep an eye on the Ramcharger. It has the potential to be a game changer.

Agree! That is a cool truck.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

It really goes no further than common sense.

I agree, but you're talking counter to the narrative we're supposed to believe.

Common sense will disqualify you from leading a multi-national multi-billion dollar corporation, then, I guess.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...ent-rcna155389

With full size trucks getting so expensive and Toyota set to dominate the compact truck market (with TWO offerings, Corolla truck and Stout) and finally give the Maverick some real competition, it seems like a cheap EV in this category would have made sense, but... oh well, here we are, or rather, here's where the General finds itself now. Trying to garner enough profits from the full size ICE market to keep it's EV agenda afloat.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Is an EV truck really unsuitable when most are just grocery getters and lifestyle vehicles?

Sure for those that tow and haul, yeah EV truck is unsuitable given current tech, etc.

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

I agree that they are not unsuitable for the guy using it for the occassional trip to Home Depot. But that guy is generally not interested in EV's to begin with.

Rivian and Lightning business cases very likely rely on the fact that most Light Duty Pickups (Half ton and under) are primarily lifestyle vehicles. Never tow anything. Rarely haul anything more than the cousin’s furniture and landscaping supplies. The EV trucks do this well. The miscalculation may be in the number of 1st owners that still opt for max towing capacity for resale purposes, even though they themselves never tow.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

True for the most part, but keep an eye on the Ramcharger. It has the potential to be a game changer.

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

Agree! That is a cool truck.

I recently spent some time with some of the inventors of the Voltec system upon which the Ramcharger system is based. Some of them did some of the early work on Ramcharger. They’ve fine-tuned my understanding of how a range extender works. Commercial truck use is a sweet spot for range extenders. I went into these conversations with the believe that PHEV would be better for towing because the ICE would add system power and torque when needed and could provide 100% of towing effort when range is depleted. They all separately and with consistent explanation totally reformed my thinking on the matter. Without going into deep technical detail, consider

• The electric motor(s) don’t really need the ICE to improve towing capacity
• Electric motors (and therefore EVs) are most efficient within a specific band of state of charge…basically, once SOC falls below a specific level, they become less efficient and have less performance / towing capacity.
• The ICE can be developed and calibrated to maintain SOC at predefined levels.
• Electric motors can be developed to tow more than gasoline and diesel engines. The ICE can focus on keeping the battery at an optimal SOC and also directly powering the electric motors. Efficiency hit? Yes, but arguably a capability improvement and not done 100% of the time.
• REEVs that are towing long distances can refuel at charging stations or at gas (or diesel) pumps. Since gas pumps are more prevalent, take less time, and would not require unhitching loads to recharge at EV charging stations. This would completely eliminate the range anxiety associated with towing with an electric truck.
• Since electric motors do not require air intake for operation, towing at altitude does not impact capability at all.

So Ram is all in on REEV and it appears GM and possibly even Ford are looking at REEV for 3/4 ton and larger trucks.

[90503]

I don't think anyone has (I guess I should say that I never have) purchased a pick-up truck with a thought that I would "NEVER" use it for towing, short haul or long distance.
Using it for "full time" towing, short or long distance, isn't realistic either.

However, even though its towing capabilities are rarely used, I know that prior to purchase and I am always prepared just in case things change. A trailer, camper, or whatever may likely be in the picture someday during ownership if it isn't already. This is why I pay for that capability right out of the gate.

My point is buying a truck as a "life-style", just for looks vehicle is not realistic either.
I would not buy a truck that could not tow easily for long distances, and at more frequent intervals even though that need may not exist now, but may at some point in the future.

Manufacturing trucks that cannot perform when needed under the assumption that the owner doesn't really need it, or will never require use it, I believe is a mistake for manufacturers to believe is the case.

Trucks should always have the ability to do what other vehicles can't whether the current owner uses it that way, or a used truck buyer is looking for something in good shape to tow/haul with. Resale value would always be there.

If EV trucks can't match the current tow/haul abilities of ICE trucks, whether the owner needs it or not, I believe they will fail and not sell.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

I don't think anyone has (I guess I should say that I never have) purchased a pick-up truck with a thought that I would "NEVER" use it for towing, short haul or long distance.
Using it for "full time" towing, short or long distance, isn't realistic either.

However, even though its towing capabilities are rarely used, I know that prior to purchase and I am always prepared just in case things change. A trailer, camper, or whatever may likely be in the picture someday during ownership if it isn't already. This is why I pay for that capability right out of the gate.

My point is buying a truck as a "life-style", just for looks vehicle is not realistic either.
I would not buy a truck that could not tow easily for long distances, and at more frequent intervals even though that need may not exist now, but may at some point in the future.

Manufacturing trucks that cannot perform when needed under the assumption that the owner doesn't really need it, or will never require use it, I believe is a mistake for manufacturers to believe is the case.

Trucks should always have the ability to do what other vehicles can't whether the current owner uses it that way, or a used truck buyer is looking for something in good shape to tow/haul with. Resale value would always be there.

If EV trucks can't match the current tow/haul abilities of ICE trucks, whether the owner needs it or not, I believe they will fail and not sell.

Probably true for the first time truck purchase. I don’t have enough fingers and toes to count the number of friends, relatives, and acquaintances that are on their 3rd, 4th, 5th pickup that have never towed anything with any of them. By the time they are speccing out that 3rd or 4th truck they know full well that they are not going to tow. They also know that every time they’ve sold a truck “does it have the tow package?” was one of the first questions asked. So going forward they make certain they have the tow package.

So to your point, people will expect same or better towing capabilities for an EV truck, whether they ever tow with it or not. And that’s why the REEV versions could be a game changer.

[olrocker]

Truth be told, maybe new truck owners aren’t doing a whole lot of “truck stuff” with them but on the used market trucks are different. Which market research does not reflect.

People aren’t gonna buy a $60k truck to beat up, abuse, drive hard, tow/haul, or load dirty stuff. But they definitely do when that same truck is on the used market for $30k.

Gas F-Series routinely hit 300,000 miles and most of them are by the second or third owner.

[lbls1]

Well personally I expect that I will tow a trailer at least once. I do not expect that I will make a full time occupation of it. Towing abilities were important to me because it is a competing attribute between pickups, however it was not the single most important factor in my choice of a pickup. To me, the pickup achieves the automotive features that many current cars and crossovers are not achieving; Providing ample features and style and enjoyment to driving.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Probably true for the first time truck purchase. I don’t have enough fingers and toes to count the number of friends, relatives, and acquaintances that are on their 3rd, 4th, 5th pickup that have never towed anything with any of them. By the time they are speccing out that 3rd or 4th truck they know full well that they are not going to tow. They also know that every time they’ve sold a truck “does it have the tow package?” was one of the first questions asked. So going forward they make certain they have the tow package.

So to your point, people will expect same or better towing capabilities for an EV truck, whether they ever tow with it or not. And that’s why the REEV versions could be a game changer.

Completely agree with this statement. The average American is NOT using a truck as a truck. They are using it in a way that most folks use their sedans. Just to get from point A to point B. I agree with the poster above though as maybe folks don’t want to pay 60k for a truck and abuse it doing “truck stuff” all the time.

I am in the used truck market. Looking for something in the low teens range as I am planning on towing with it a few times a year as I like going away to far away tracks. Would be way less anxious about doing that if I had a tow vehicle.