Electric Vehicles

[mlee]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Right after you do the same for Ford and Stellantis. Funny thing is, I actually CAN do that but I bet you can't.

[bigd1276]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Not really. I just know it's an easy way to get you wound up when this thread slows down. Not joking.

Now that was funny.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Not really. I just know it's an easy way to get you wound up when this thread slows down. Not joking.

Haha, oh boy.

i'll bite with a new topic. So anyone else think Toyota had this whole thing right and are better positioned if the tax credit is eliminated? They have been destroyed in media about their strategy in relation to electrification so far. It's like Toyota while making decisions influenced by policy as they all do, also were engaged with current and potential customers. GM may just be in the worst position if BEV has to stand alone without incentive. Thoughts?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by snizzle

Haha, oh boy.

i'll bite with a new topic. So anyone else think Toyota had this whole thing right and are better positioned if the tax credit is eliminated? They have been destroyed in media about their strategy in relation to electrification so far. It's like Toyota while making decisions influenced by policy as they all do, also were engaged with current and potential customers. GM may just be in the worst position if BEV has to stand alone without incentive. Thoughts?

Toyota has made the right position. But they were / are uniquely positioned to do so. Since the origins of Prius, Toyota has stayed laser focused on hybrid technology development (wise move) and hydrogen fuel cell development (a bit less wise). As a result, the efficiency of their hybrid systems is better and, more importantly, the COST of their hybrid systems is ridiculously lower than anyone else on the planet. They’ve likely completed 9 - 10 cycles of learning to make their hybrid systems smaller, lighter, more efficient and lower cost. So it’s not a surprise that year after year they add to the list of their products that are only available in hybrid configuration. Prius (of course), Venza / Crown, Sienna, and Camry have all been hybrid only for a while. The RAV4 upgrade is launching right now as a hybrid only nameplate. Expect Corolla to be next.

As for GM, I doubt they will be worst off. I actually think that will be Ford. That will likely depend on where EVs wind up in a world without incentives. EVs are not going to disappear. It’s a question of how pervasive will they be. If they expand a lot, Ford will be challenged as they have reduced their EV footprint by quite a bit and have introduced zero new EV product since the Mach E.

By contrast, GM and even Stellantis have been on a steady roll of EV product launch. Most of it <cough>Dodge Daytona Charger</cough> has been well received. For GM in particular, the number of models produced from the same technology set in fairly high volumes increases their cycles of learning and brings their per unit cost down faster than anyone else in the US market that isn’t Tesla. Similar to Toyota’s position with hybrids.

Stellantis continues to increase the volume and improve their cycles of learning on hybrid product in the US and EV product in Europe. So Ford is becoming odd man out by just sorta moving the ball down the court slowly with both technologies.

[shaffe]

Got a chance to chat with a guy I play softball with on his new GMC Hummer. Said he absolutely loves it, but also did have some gripes.

He said it get's no where near the range its says it's supposed to get. He said he hasn't come close to being able to get 300 miles range out of it without having to charge. When he took it on a road trip towing his side by side, said trip is normally 3 hours but took him close to 6 because they had to stop and charge it twice. Also hated that he had to disconnect the trailer so he could fit in the charging area.

But aside from those he said he absolutely loves it. Loves all the technology in it, loves it as a daily driver

[Capricio]

Let’s step back from the trade and see what we can see. GM’s total consolidated debt was $301 billion on December 31, 2004. Canada’s entire Federal Debt is about $363 billion. GM makes crappy cars, has a horribly under funded pension plan, has $2,000 more expenses per car (because of benefit obligations) than does Toyota who makes better cars. IMO that is all one needs to know to know where GM is headed.

https://mishtalk.com/uncategorized/gm-insanity/

GM Backpedals on EVs

The Wall Street Journal reports GM Invests in V-8 Engines as It Backpedals on EVs

General Motors has abandoned a plan to pump $300 million into electric-vehicle motor production at its upstate New York plant and will instead invest $888 million to make the latest V-8 engines.

Since the EV announcement two years ago for its Tonawanda plant, electric-vehicle sales have slowed, prompting GM and other carmakers to walk back investment plans for the technology.

The company said Tuesday its new plan marks its largest single investment in an engine plant and makes Tonawanda its second propulsion plant to produce the sixth generation of V-8 engines.

The engines, used in full-size trucks and SUVs, use new combustion and thermal management innovations to improve performance while reducing emissions, the company said.

The investment includes new machinery, equipment, tools and facility renovations, and builds on GM’s work to boost its manufacturing facilities in recent years, including a half-billion-dollar investment in its Flint engine plant in 2023, the company said.

Nay Sayers Were Right

The nay sayers were right, at least in the US, and for now.

That’s the group I have been in. The US is just not ready for mass EV adoption.

China is another matter.

https://mishtalk.com/economics/gm-ab...n-v-8-engines/

I hope they get this 6th Gen V8 right!

[snizzle]

I think the V8 development, which they doubled down on, was just further admission that a full size BEV truck just isn't good at truck stuff and even less convenient. Not to mention the cost at the moment and the current day requirements to put such a huge battery underneath to get decent range. IMO I think a smaller errand/route truck for fleets that could plugin at the shop each night would have made more sense than a massive 70k WT SilvErado.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

https://mishtalk.com/uncategorized/gm-insanity/



https://mishtalk.com/economics/gm-ab...n-v-8-engines/

I hope they get this 6th Gen V8 right!

Originally Posted by snizzle

I think the V8 development, which they doubled down on, was just further admission that a full size BEV truck just isn't good at truck stuff and even less convenient. Not to mention the cost at the moment and the current day requirements to put such a huge battery underneath to get decent range. IMO I think a smaller errand/route truck for fleets that could plugin at the shop each night would have made more sense than a massive 70k WT SilvErado.

It’s actually a couple things. To frame this correctly, I retired from GM Product Portfolio Planning in March 2017. Development of this engine was already underway. This was BEFORE GM shifted to their Zero Emissions / Zero Crashes / Zero Congestion strategy. The primary purpose of this upgrade was to address the 2027 Emissions Regulations and it is primarily focused on trucks with some potential to consider non-Z06/ZR1 Corvettes. What we’re seeing now is spending to productionize the Light Duty version of the engine. We already saw the spending to productionize the Medium / Heavy Duty version in the introduction of the 6.6L built in Flint. This is the Light Duty version getting built in Tonawanda (Buffalo, NY).

Now, with the shift in strategy to slow the introduction of EVs, particularly on the truck part of the portfolio, GM may be adding more capacity of the engine that started development in 2017.

Going forward I believe GM will continue to offer ICE in trucks and maybe also the larger utilities (Tahoe / Yukon / Suburban) and more than likely also offer REEV applications with only a couple of pure BEV applications. If they offer REEV the engine is not likely to be one of these V8s, since the engine will never actually power the wheels.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Not really. I just know it's an easy way to get you wound up when this thread slows down. Not joking.

I gotcha. Get your rocks off pissing people off.

People on this forum have been permanently banned for less but hey, whatever..

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Right after you do the same for Ford and Stellantis. Funny thing is, I actually CAN do that but I bet you can't.

In production right now. For sale in the United States.

A gasoline V6 sedan for $30k.

I’ll bite - prove me wrong oh cocky one.

[Devstrike]

Correct if wrong here but it seems like (outside of Political Influence) Americans are just not as accepting as other countries for EVs. Probably with different cultures with Towing with trucks to campsites etc, Road trippers you name it. I think that 2035 goal (things can change) that is trying to be pushed might be a bit unrealistic. I think the Manufacturers realizing this are backtracking a bit and in Stellantis case probably going to reintroduce the Hemi to non 2500 pickup models like the Ram 1500, Charger etc. alongside GM investing more in the V8.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Devstrike

Correct if wrong here but it seems like (outside of Political Influence) Americans are just not as accepting as other countries for EVs. Probably with different cultures with Towing with trucks to campsites etc, Road trippers you name it. I think that 2035 goal (things can change) that is trying to be pushed might be a bit unrealistic. I think the Manufacturers realizing this are backtracking a bit and in Stellantis case probably going to reintroduce the Hemi to non 2500 pickup models like the Ram 1500, Charger etc. alongside GM investing more in the V8.

America has always, and will always be, a big car, big gasoline country. Today’s trucks are the modern version of the ‘68 Caprice.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by olrocker

In production right now. For sale in the United States.

A gasoline V6 sedan for $30k.

I’ll bite - prove me wrong oh cocky one.

That was not part of your original ask. And as I said, give me a Ford or Stellantis example first. You can't. And for what it's worth, I am not cocky. I just have direct access to a database that can answer the question in seconds. My own cheat code.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Devstrike

Correct if wrong here but it seems like (outside of Political Influence) Americans are just not as accepting as other countries for EVs. Probably with different cultures with Towing with trucks to campsites etc, Road trippers you name it. I think that 2035 goal (things can change) that is trying to be pushed might be a bit unrealistic. I think the Manufacturers realizing this are backtracking a bit and in Stellantis case probably going to reintroduce the Hemi to non 2500 pickup models like the Ram 1500, Charger etc. alongside GM investing more in the V8.

I think that 2035 was never achievable and still can't understand how California felt the need to codify it in law. Manufacturers can't turn over their plants fast enough and people living in multi-family dwellings, especially in multi-floor properties most likely won't have access to places to plug-in overnight and charge at residential electricity rates. Until those things are solved there will always need to be ICE based vehicles. It's why I've always said that I'll be in an urn on one of my kids' fireplace mantles before the last ICE vehicle rolls off the line.

Originally Posted by olrocker

America has always, and will always be, a big car, big gasoline country. Today’s trucks are the modern version of the ‘68 Caprice.

Very much true. Today's trucks are the '57 Chevy / '68 Caprice / '77 Cutlass. I spent a lot of time in Italy this spring. Everywhere I went I was like "there is no way an F150 can drive down this street, let alone park". We are very unique in our want / need for big trucks.